Summary
Amanda Makulec is the current Executive Director of the Data Visualization Society (DVS), and in this week’s episode of the PolicyViz Podcast, we discuss her journey and the DVS’s evolution as it approaches its fifth anniversary. Amanda shares her experience starting as a volunteer all the way to leading the entire organization. With her second term coming to an end, she emphasizes the importance of term limits and her commitment to ensuring the organization’s sustainability by focusing on operational systems, finances, compliance, and community responsiveness.
Topics Discussed
- Leadership and Evolution of DVS. Amanda discusses her path from volunteering to leading DVS and reflects on the importance of term limits and her dedication to the sustainability of the society.
- Community Building and Knowledge Sharing. Amanda discusses DVS’s role as a hub for individuals from different tech backgrounds to share insights and best practices and how DVS seeks to create more meaningful community spaces.
- Data Literacy and Supportive Initiatives. We discuss DVS’s commitment to data literacy and providing a nurturing environment through initiatives like the Outlier conference and the Nightingale magazine.
- Navigating Social Media and Communication Platforms. As I’ve talked about with other recent guests, we talk about decreased engagement on Twitter/X and limited real-time interaction on LinkedIn. We discuss the balance between online space fragmentation, privacy, and psychological safety, as well as DVS’s use of Slack and potential migration to other platforms such as Discord.
- Financial Challenges and Operational Sustainability. We talk about the financial constraints of DVS, including the high costs of Slack, and the importance of allocating the budget wisely to support key community and operations management roles.
Resources
Data Visualization Society (DVS)
New book in the works: Big Book of Dashboards
Guest Bio
Amanda Makulec, MPH is a health data visualization designer, teacher, and speaker based in Washington DC. She has worked with global health programs, community organizations, private sector corporations, and federal agencies to design and teach others how to create effective data visualizations, with a focus on visualizing data responsibly.
She has frequently published and presented on the complexities and human impacts of how we communicate health information, including in publications like Fast Company and the New York Times. Amanda currently serves as the Executive Director of the global Data Visualization Society, and holds a BA in Zoology and Sociology from Miami University and an MPH from Boston University School of Public Health.
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Transcript
00:12 – 00:17
Welcome back to the PolicyViz Podcast. I’m your host, Jon Schwabish. On this week’s episode
00:17 – 00:22
of the show, I welcome the executive director of the Data Visualization Society and my friend,
00:22 – 00:28
Amanda Makulec. Amanda and I talk about her time leading the DVS over the last few years.
00:28 – 00:35
And as her time winds down in that position, where she thinks the DVS fits into the current
00:35 – 00:41
landscape of the field, and where she thinks it will head in the future. And, of course, data
00:41 – 00:45
visualization as a field is kind of interesting because it has both a researcher side and a
00:45 – 00:50
practitioner side, and it’s interesting to think about how both of those sides interact or don’t
00:50 – 00:56
interact. And so we talk about where DBS sort of sits in those two camps. And I’m sure if you
00:56 – 01:02
think about it more, or have a different sort of feeling of your role in the field, how DBS
01:02 – 01:07
can provide you with benefits. So it’s a really interesting conversation. And I think if you
01:07 – 01:11
are especially if you are just getting started in the field, this is the conversation you want
01:11 – 01:17
to listen to because it’s Jon help you think about how at least Amanda thinks about DVS and
01:17 – 01:22
how it can help you in your data visualization journey. So I’m gonna turn you over to the interview
01:22 – 01:27
in just one second. But before I do, if you could take a moment out of your day to leave a rating
01:27 – 01:34
or review of the show on your favorite podcast provider, iTunes, Spotify especially, or if you’re
01:34 – 01:38
watching this on YouTube, leave a comment, leave a review, subscribe to the channel, that would
01:38 – 01:46
be great. Those ratings, those reviews really help me find other guests to invite Jon the show
01:46 – 01:54
so that I can bring you this content each and every other week. So here is my conversation with
01:54 – 01:58
Amanda. I hope you’ll enjoy it, and I hope you will check out the Data Visualization Society
01:58 – 02:03
website. And if you aren’t already a member, will consider signing up. So here’s my conversation
02:03 – 02:09
with the executive director of the Data Visualization Society, Amanda Macaulay. Amanda, what
02:09 – 02:11
a pleasure to see you again.
02:11 – 02:12
You too, John.
02:12 – 02:13
It’s been a while.
02:13 – 02:15
Thanks for having me on today.
02:15 – 02:19
Oh, I mean, it’s very exciting. Let’s see. I think was the last time I saw you over the summer?
02:21 – 02:27
Possibly. Like, a whole entire week of quality time at that conference in Maine. Right?
02:27 – 02:31
Yeah. Well, that’s possible. It could be last time. That that’s crazy. Given that we basically
02:31 – 02:34
live, like, 15 minutes from each other.
02:34 – 02:35
Yeah. Something like that.
02:35 – 02:40
We’re kinda sad. But it’s great to see you. Thanks for coming on the show. You are in your last
02:41 – 02:48
12 months of executive director of Data Visualization Society. So give me a little bit of your,
02:49 – 02:58
your history of DBS. Like, how did you ramp all the way up to to ED and now seeing the end of your term?
02:59 – 03:04
Ramp up is an interesting word. Right? So, I mean, we’re we’re turning 5. We’re turning 5 this
03:04 – 03:11
year, which is very exciting. Our birthday is in February. So 5 years of the Data Society, and
03:11 – 03:17
I have been involved since February of 2019 when I think I was person number 12. If I look at
03:17 – 03:22
the roster to sign up for DBS and check the box for, yes, I would like to volunteer. And I got
03:22 – 03:27
a pretty quick message from Amy Cecil who who said, yes. We would love for you to help volunteer.
03:27 – 03:27
Mhmm.
03:27 – 03:32
And we knew each other through Data Circles from back when she had lived in DC and had connected
03:32 – 03:37
back at Tapestry, which was kind of the birthplace of DBS back in 2018 when Amy, Molly, and
03:37 – 03:41
Elijah kicked off the conversations about how to create this space for people to connect across
03:41 – 03:46
different text stacks and communities and spaces. And so it’s interesting looking back over
03:46 – 03:51
the course of 5 years because it feels like it went by really quickly, and it feels like it’s
03:51 – 03:57
been a really long time. February of 2019 was when I had my first kid. And so I was on maternity
03:57 – 04:02
leave, and I won’t venture to say I was bored because I don’t think that’s the right framing
04:02 – 04:07
of life with a newborn at home. I mean, you have kids. Life with a newborn is not boring, but
04:07 – 04:11
there’s something that some intellectual stimulation gaps there in terms of spending lots of
04:11 – 04:15
quality time with a tiny human that doesn’t really engage in meaningful conversation.
04:15 – 04:15
Yeah.
04:15 – 04:22
And so I, I I got involved very early on and took on the role of the operations director when
04:22 – 04:27
we kicked off the first DBS board in June of that same year because we wanted to get ourselves
04:27 – 04:33
set up in a way that we could be a kind of fully formed organization that wasn’t a loosely knit
04:33 – 04:38
group of people running something with a balance sheet run off of an Excel spreadsheet where
04:38 – 04:43
people log their expenses, and we figured out who owed who what. Instead, kind of getting everything
04:43 – 04:49
set up to actually be a a data firm organization, getting all the paperwork in to be a 501c3
04:49 – 04:53
nonprofit because we were founded with the goal of being a nonprofit professional association.
04:53 – 04:58
And so doing all of that work upfront, that set me up to be the operations director, which I
04:58 – 05:02
stayed in for about a year and a half until Elijah wrapped up his first term as executive director.
05:02 – 05:08
And then I, ran for and then was selected as the executive director. Gosh. No. 3 years ago.
05:08 – 05:13
And we have a term limit, which is, I know, novel and exciting, but that is the reason I’ll
05:13 – 05:17
wrap. I know I’ll wrap up at the end of this year is we do have a 2 term term limit in any given
05:17 – 05:23
role. And so, I’ve had this wonderful arc of being able to be involved in the foundational creation
05:23 – 05:28
of what the organization is that can also move through different leadership and board members
05:28 – 05:34
and remain stable and and growing and doing exciting things, and also get a chance to be able
05:34 – 05:39
to have a point where I can pass the torch. So I’m excited to dive into what that world looks like.
05:40 – 05:46
So what does the next 12 months look like for you and for DBS? Like, what what what are you
05:46 – 05:50
trying to what do you wanna accomplish in this last stretch of your last term?
05:51 – 05:56
So I think one of the focuses always for me from a leadership perspective has been twofold.
05:56 – 06:01
On the back end, how do we build an organization that is scalable and sustainable long term
06:01 – 06:06
That any one of us can roll off the board and leave and move into an advisory capacity or shift
06:06 – 06:11
away and just be a general member. And DVS will continue to live on and grow, and the various
06:11 – 06:16
things we’ve built will be sustained. And that requires a lot of work on the back end in terms
06:16 – 06:22
of operational systems and finances and working on compliance bits and making sure that we’re
06:22 – 06:26
being responsive to member questions and all of the different things that you think of in running
06:26 – 06:33
a business. Right? I mean, DBS is basically running a small nonprofit business that has all
06:33 – 06:38
of those various operational kind of things behind the scenes. So part of me is really focused
06:38 – 06:43
on, after 5 years, making sure I am not a dependency on any of those things so that when I roll
06:43 – 06:47
off and leave, the organization continues to flourish. And that’s, I know, a little bit self
06:47 – 06:51
serving, but I think it’s also important more broadly for us to think about in organizations
06:51 – 06:56
that we’re in, especially volunteer organizations that you don’t have anyone who’s a single
06:56 – 06:58
kind of linchpin that holds that holds things together.
06:58 – 06:59
Mhmm.
06:59 – 07:03
The second piece, though, is really thinking about how we kind of focus on supporting our community
07:03 – 07:08
and what the data vis community looks like as a whole. I think as a professional association,
07:08 – 07:13
we certainly check the boxes on annual conference and awards and finding ways to celebrate and
07:13 – 07:17
nurture and advance this industry, which are our kind of three key pillars that we hold Jon
07:17 – 07:22
to. But I think the thing that has gotten harder as we’ve gotten bigger, we’ve grown now to
07:22 – 07:29
over 31,000 members across over a 160 countries around the world, is how do we create more community
07:29 – 07:34
spaces within our community, whether it’s through our local chapters, our interest groups, through
07:34 – 07:39
Slack conversations, or through other spaces. And so one of the areas I’ve been really focused
07:39 – 07:43
on this year and will be thinking about a lot as we get our new board members onboarded since
07:43 – 07:47
we just finished a board transition, is thinking about our ways in which we can support and
07:47 – 07:50
build community in a really meaningful way.
07:50 – 07:55
Yeah. So what does that mean? What does that look like for you? I mean, what is your view of
07:55 – 08:03
DBS’s role in the data community, which is centralized and decentralized kind of at the same
08:03 – 08:08
time, depending on, like, what sector you’re in and what tool you like to use. And, you know,
08:09 – 08:15
are you part of the Tableau group, part of the r group? Like, how do you view the DBS role in the community?
08:15 – 08:21
So I see us as a convener in a space that people can come together from across tech stacks and
08:21 – 08:26
tools, from across subject matter areas and areas of interest, and share knowledge, resources,
08:26 – 08:32
best practices in ways that they might not be able to in more tool specific spaces. That was
08:32 – 08:36
part of the root of how DBS got founded. Right? The idea that, you know, all if all the Power
08:36 – 08:41
BI folks are talking about their kind of ways of using color and all the Tableau folks are talking
08:41 – 08:46
about color and all the data journalists are talking about color and the data artists are talking
08:46 – 08:50
about color. Well, we see a commonality. Right? We all have different things that we’re thinking
08:50 – 08:55
about around how we use color, And our use cases might be a bit different, but there’s shared
08:55 – 09:00
knowledge and information and inspiration we can take across groups. And so I think DBS really
09:00 – 09:04
still serves as that kind of core convening space. And I think that some of the fundamental
09:05 – 09:10
kind of work streams and products, products is probably a bad word to use, but I mean, products
09:10 – 09:15
that we’ve built out over the last 5 years in the form of our outlier conference and in the
09:15 – 09:21
Nightingale magazine are really spaces that people can go to and discover content specific to
09:21 – 09:26
data visualization, but that cuts across so many different dimensions and spaces within our
09:26 – 09:31
space in our industry. And so I think we still take we occupied that kind of convening space
09:31 – 09:36
and helping to establish and look at how we can see data biz as an industry. I think that’s
09:36 – 09:41
come with a couple challenges though in the form of people hearing data visualization society
09:41 – 09:47
and saying, I don’t have data vis in my job title. So that’s not somewhere where I belong. Whereas
09:47 – 09:52
I would say that anyone who does data visualization work at some point in their job or their
09:52 – 09:58
their lives could find value in being part of DBS at some member level, in part because data
09:58 – 10:05
visualization creation and reading data visualizations and data literacy have become fundamental
10:05 – 10:10
skills similar to writing in a lot of ways, in the ways in which we show up in the workplace.
10:10 – 10:15
And I did a talk at a a meetup not 2 nights ago at a a PMI group. And I said, how many of you
10:15 – 10:20
think of yourselves as data viz creators? And maybe a couple hands go up in a room of 60 people.
10:20 – 10:25
I said, how many of you have ever had to build a chart for a PowerPoint slide? Every hand in
10:25 – 10:29
the room shoots up. Right? So, I mean, I think we’re all a little bit closer to data visualization
10:29 – 10:34
than we think we are, and DBS can help to connect those dots and make that a space that feels
10:34 – 10:39
nurturing, welcoming, and helps people discover those kind of practices and people to follow,
10:39 – 10:41
read, book 2, people like you.
10:41 – 10:49
Yeah. So on that convening, topic, the world of social media has changed pretty dramatically
10:50 – 10:58
over the last, what, 12, 16 months. So, I mean, I so I will say that, like, my data Twitter,
10:59 – 11:05
was, like, my main place to go for that discussion. And there’s all these other social media
11:05 – 11:10
channels that I’m I’m done. Like, I’m not adding new channels, but, like, there’s also the DBS
11:10 – 11:15
Slack, which has its own, like, all these channels have their own pros and cons. But, like,
11:15 – 11:23
what’s your perspective on kinda data vis social media and then, obviously, like, how the DBS
11:23 – 11:26
Slack or DBS generally. It doesn’t have to be
11:26 – 11:26
the Slack.
11:26 – 11:33
But DBS kind of maybe fills some of that hole if even if you view it as a as a as a whole. But,
11:33 – 11:37
like, what what’s your feeling on where things are headed and and where they are?
11:38 – 11:43
So I think it’s an interesting question on a personal level and then on a DBS level. Right?
11:43 – 11:49
Yeah. So how I choose to spend my time as a on a personal level as a data visualization professional
11:49 – 11:55
has shifted and changed probably similar to yours. I know DBS Twitter and Data Twitter and more
11:55 – 12:00
broadly, and Twitter being a convening space where there was this kind of collision of my worlds,
12:01 – 12:06
international development, public health, data vis, cooking, random photography people. Like,
12:06 – 12:10
that’s what I loved about Twitter was it was this intersection of my interest that I found really
12:10 – 12:16
interesting to engage with. I don’t find that that’s what I get on Twitter anymore, so I don’t
12:16 – 12:21
really engage in that space much. And it’s it’s a bit disappointing because I think that a lot
12:21 – 12:26
of us that kind of built up that community there as well as having DBS build up a community
12:26 – 12:31
of people there. But these days, just even getting your content, your replies, your information
12:31 – 12:36
seen, if you’re not a paid contributor to that platform, I think it’s harder and harder based
12:36 – 12:41
on how algorithms work. Yeah. I’ve shifted over, and we have a huge following from a DBS perspective
12:41 – 12:47
on LinkedIn where we have over a 140,000 followers for the DBS account. And I find that LinkedIn
12:47 – 12:52
has been a great space for us to share kind of passive updates about information, about postings
12:52 – 12:56
on conferences, new Nightingale articles. And we get some engagement there, but it’s not the
12:56 – 13:02
same kind of real time conversation in part again because of how the my news feed shows up.
13:02 – 13:07
I think sometimes I see something from 2 weeks ago that suddenly is getting surfaced to me.
13:07 – 13:11
And there’s so much kind of AI generated content there that on a personal level, I find that
13:11 – 13:17
it’s not as, as engaging for me in terms of those conversations. So I think it’s tough because
13:17 – 13:22
I think that we’ve seen this this splintering across people testing out different spaces, Instagram,
13:22 – 13:27
threads, blue sky now Mhmm. Going over to, Mastodon and those different spaces.
13:27 – 13:28
Yeah.
13:28 – 13:32
And the challenge is that the more we fragment across things, you both see people going into
13:32 – 13:36
their entrenched corners where their people are, and you also see people trying to do something
13:36 – 13:38
across everything. Right?
13:38 – 13:38
Right.
13:38 – 13:43
Where I say the Du Bois challenge running in February is amazing, but people are posting what
13:43 – 13:48
they’re doing across 5 or 6 different spaces and channels, including the DBS Slack. And what
13:48 – 13:53
that means is that people are seeing the section of the work and the challenge participation
13:53 – 13:55
specific to their environment.
13:55 – 13:55
Right.
13:55 – 13:59
And so I think DBS Slack creates a space that’s a little bit more private for people to share
13:59 – 14:04
things and that kind of challenge. You’re in a community of people who’ve been vetted and added
14:04 – 14:09
as members for the organization, so you’re not putting it out on a public facing space. So I
14:09 – 14:13
think there’s some more safety and psychological safety in posting questions and things like
14:13 – 14:19
that in the DBS Slack that enabled conversation. I think we have the challenge other Slack workspaces
14:19 – 14:24
have that aren’t paid that the long history of interesting conversations over time gets archived,
14:24 – 14:29
and you can’t access it. And I know folks who have been critical of kind of having those conversations
14:30 – 14:34
and not being able to find them. And so it’s always that tricky balance as we look at things
14:34 – 14:39
as an organization that if we have a robust enough set of Slack conversations, should we be
14:39 – 14:44
investing in paid Slack for our members, or should we migrate to a free platform like Discord?
14:44 – 14:48
And those are the the debates we we deal with all the time internal as an organization and how
14:48 – 14:53
we create space for our members to have those conversations and create convening spaces for
14:53 – 14:54
the data community.
14:54 – 15:00
Yeah. But Slack is not cheap. Like, to upgrade to that that plan, whatever it is, like, it’s not cheap.
15:00 – 15:05
Oh, no. For for us as an organization based on actives and based on the nonprofit discount Slack
15:05 – 15:09
offers, which I forget is 70 or 80% on their base data.
15:09 – 15:09
Yeah.
15:09 – 15:15
We had costed it out, and it was gonna cost last year would have cost us around $25,000 Wow.
15:15 – 15:19
To buy paid Slack for a year. Yeah. And so whenever it comes up where someone’s like, why can’t
15:19 – 15:23
we have this? I’m like, well, what would you like for us not to pay for? And then there are
15:23 – 15:28
other things that we would love to invest more in, like having a dedicated paid part time community
15:28 – 15:34
manager or operations manager who helps us support support some more of those community level
15:34 – 15:39
functions that we would probably choose to invest in 1st. And those are the tricky backs back
15:39 – 15:43
end kind of trade offs you’re making. Or when you say yes to spending money on one thing that
15:43 – 15:47
serves one group of people, you’re saying no to saying to to something else that might serve
15:47 – 15:48
a different group.
15:48 – 15:53
Right. Or you’re increasing fees, the membership fees, which nobody wants to pay more to.
15:53 – 15:57
And they’re we try to keep those fees so low. Like, I think our entry fee fee you can pay as
15:57 – 16:00
a student or something else is $25 a year.
16:00 – 16:08
Right. I mean, so so this is the this is the the the tension. I’m curious. Aside from DBS, what
16:08 – 16:12
are you up to these days? What are you making? What are you building? What are you leading?
16:13 – 16:17
What do you what do you I know DBS is taking up, what, like, probably what, like, 10 to 20 hours
16:17 – 16:19
each week of your time?
16:19 – 16:23
That’s about right and has for about 5 years. So if someone wants to do the math on that. I
16:23 – 16:28
will put in a fun fun fact of, like, when we look at our IRS tax returns as a nonprofit, they
16:28 – 16:33
actually do an estimation of the value of the volunteer hours contributed. So when you look
16:33 – 16:40
at our total return, like, half of our return is donated volunteer labor, which is scary. Right?
16:40 – 16:44
There’s a there’s a there’s a sustainability cap there that I’ve got to address. Yeah. But if
16:44 – 16:48
that if for people who kind of look at those kind of things, if you’ll ever look at our tax
16:48 – 16:53
return, which is public information, if you ever look at that, that the big number you see is
16:53 – 16:57
about half volunteer labor that’s been estimated in value of IRS.
16:57 – 16:57
Yeah.
16:58 – 17:03
What am I working on? So I, so in addition to kind of DBS taking up a good chunk of my time
17:03 – 17:07
and a very valuable chunk of my time, I love doing this work. I love the community building
17:07 – 17:12
we’ve done. I’m excited about the new board members we have coming on and the ways in which
17:12 – 17:16
some of our, current board members are moving into leadership roles in smaller sections of the
17:16 – 17:22
organization. I still work. Actually, I do have paid work. I I work as an independent consultant.
17:22 – 17:30
I have since, March of 2022. I was working at Accela, a data as a data visualization lead and
17:30 – 17:35
the acting director of AI and analytics, and I ended up shifting out on my own in March and
17:35 – 17:41
of now gosh. Almost 2 years ago. Mhmm. Just because of where everything was in my my personal
17:41 – 17:46
life and kind of managing being a working parent and managing balancing priorities and really
17:46 – 17:51
wanting to go back and focus more on the world of public health data visualization design. And
17:51 – 17:56
the way to make sure you’re focusing on the kinds of projects and subject areas you care about
17:56 – 18:00
is really to focus in and and work for yourself if you have the the privilege and the ability
18:00 – 18:05
to do so. Right. And so I’ve been working, on various different projects, working with different
18:05 – 18:12
clients, including USAID, working about half time with them for the past year plus, working
18:12 – 18:17
with USAID, working with, smaller organizations and entities, teaching at MICA, the Maryland
18:17 – 18:22
Institute College of Arts, kind of cobbling together this interesting kaleidoscope of different
18:22 – 18:28
ways in which I get to still do some data visualization design work, but focusing a lot on capacity
18:28 – 18:33
development and teaching and training and thinking about how do we continue to help people build
18:33 – 18:38
these various pieces of skills, and knowledge and information about data visualization design
18:38 – 18:44
that oftentimes is really going back to basics for people who have oftentimes used kind of basic
18:44 – 18:48
chart defaults and different tools that they use and helping them build better charts where
18:48 – 18:52
they feel like they’re making deliberate design decisions. And that’s where really where I’m
18:52 – 18:58
happiest. Just how do I help people build those skills, and how do I help organizations go ahead
18:58 – 19:02
and operationalize some of the systems for continued skill skill development
19:02 – 19:02
Mhmm.
19:02 – 19:07
And for finding ways to build better internal data visualization projects by using user centered
19:07 – 19:11
design, agile, and other approaches to building better dashboards, for example.
19:11 – 19:16
So What’s in your experience, and this obviously goes back years now, but, like, in your experience
19:16 – 19:21
working with clients and other groups and at Exela and all the other and and JSI before that,
19:21 – 19:22
like Yep. One of your
19:22 – 19:26
Love your map love your map shirt, by the way. I mean, JSI, this is a nice shout out to John
19:26 – 19:27
Snow and the collar of the
19:27 – 19:35
get it. Yeah. What, or what is your client’s, like, folks’ biggest challenge? Is it on tools?
19:35 – 19:41
Is it the concept? Is it just like, you know, oh, I could never build something so amazing as
19:41 – 19:46
such and such a person? Like, what if you if you had if someone came to you and said, hey. We
19:46 – 19:53
want you to work with our team, but you can only teach or do one thing. Like, is there a silver
19:53 – 19:57
kind of silver bullet for you that you would say, this is the thing that we need to work on?
19:58 – 20:03
Oh, that’s so specific to what their needs are. I would be asking a lot of follow-up questions,
20:03 – 20:07
the silver bullets, and then I’d probably get nervous that they wanted a silver bullet and might
20:07 – 20:10
decide that’s not a good match for the way that I approach thinking about data visualization.
20:11 – 20:11
Yeah.
20:12 – 20:17
I think but as I think about kind of the cross cutting skills, I do think technology becomes
20:17 – 20:23
a easy thing to blame when when when technology solutions don’t solve the problem. Right? How
20:23 – 20:27
many places have you gone to that have a ton of Tableau licenses and Tableau server, and yet
20:27 – 20:33
still people aren’t using the the information and still aren’t kind of engaging with the data
20:33 – 20:38
and the the dashboards or charts continue to underwhelm. And so for me, I would focus on kind
20:38 – 20:44
of narrowing in who are the people who are building or or should be building and designing charts
20:44 – 20:49
and graphs, not just in their job title, but charts and graphs, focusing specifically on static
20:49 – 20:51
charts and graphs. Because I think if you can
