Welcome back to the show! In this week’s episode, I chat with Allen Carroll, former Chief Cartographer at National Geographic and part of Esri’s StoryMaps team. We talk about his new book, Telling Stories with Maps, which explores how maps can communicate meaning, emotion, and narrative. Allen shares his journey from analog map design to interactive, multimedia storytelling—and how digital tools are transforming the way we visualize place and data. We also discuss design choices, the balance between creativity and accessibility, and why storytelling is at the heart of effective communication. It’s a fascinating look at the intersection of geography, design, and technology.
Resources
Check out Allen’s book on Amazon or wherever you get your books.
Guest Bio
Allen Carroll is Program Manager for Storytelling at Esri. He founded Esri’s StoryMaps team, which provides web tools that have been used by hundreds of thousands of individuals and organizations to tell place-based stories combining interactive maps and multimedia content. He leads an editorial team that supports a global community of digital storytellers. Allen came to Esri after 27 years at the National Geographic Society. As its chief cartographer, he was deeply involved in the creation of the Society’s renowned reference and wall maps, globes, and atlases. He led the creation of the Seventh and Eighth editions of the World Atlas, incorporating innovative thematic maps into the editions and integrating them for the first time with interactive web resources. He spearheaded the publication of many new maps and websites, ranging from decorative wall maps and supplement maps for National Geographic magazine to special projects featuring biodiversity, conservation, and indigenous cultures. He is author of Telling Stories with Maps, published by Esri Press in June 2025.
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Transcript
00:01.70
Jon
Hey, Alan, great to meet you. thanks for Thanks for coming on the show.
00:05.38
Allen
Hey, John, it’s my pleasure.
00:07.58
Jon
I’m very excited to talk with you. There are not a there are not a not a lot of many good books on data maps. And so I’m excited to have another good book to add to the catalog.
00:18.77
Jon
So that’s that’s pretty exciting. um I wanted to start with ah maybe talking about your background a little bit because you start the book with like a story at the very beginning of your career and then you go into National Geographic. So um I thought we could talk a little bit about your background and then we can we can we can talk about the book a little bit.
00:38.03
Allen
Okay, sounds good. So yeah, you say the very beginning of my career, the book actually begins when I’m four or five years old, but I won’t go in into quite all that all that detail.
00:45.62
Jon
Yeah. Yeah.
00:49.08
Allen
And anyway, let’s fast forward until I’m about 30 or so, 28 or 30. I moved from it.
00:53.95
Jon
Okay. that’ probably That’s probably good.
00:54.97
Allen
i move
00:56.03
Jon
Yeah.
00:56.90
Allen
I moved from the countryside of Connecticut to Washington, D.C., carrying an illustration portfolio and started to peddle my wares, having no idea whether it’s going to work or not, just having a hunch that I might be kind of marketable and had a good bit of success working for New Republic and Washington Post and then Washington Star, et cetera.
01:16.90
Allen
And I did a major kind of infographic piece for the Washington Post Sunday Magazine, which recently, by the way, went defunct.
01:23.96
Jon
Yeah.
01:24.36
Allen
um And that ah that got my foot in the door at National Geographic. It caught the eye of its then art director, Howard Payne, and I came on as assistant art director in the magazine art department.
01:37.00
Allen
And then later on in the succeeding years, and I was at National Geographic for 27 years, I had separate stints back and forth between the map division and the magazine, first of which was to design and art direct a US historical atlas, which so it was like boot camp and cartography for me.
01:55.04
Allen
So I I kind of learned on the job and again, back and forth with ultimately became the art director of the magazine.
01:55.12
Jon
And
02:02.21
Allen
But when the opportunity came up to go back to the map division as chief cartographer, I jumped at the chance. And so, yeah, the last dozen or so years I was the chief cartographer there.
02:14.78
Jon
And so can you can you tell me a little bit about how the practice changed over your 27 years? I imagine when you first started, it was a lot more analog than it was when you when you left.
02:27.58
Allen
Right, yeah. the The transition had started. So there was off in the corner of the MAP division. were more than 100 people working the MAP division. There was an air conditioned climate controlled room with this hulking computer in it called a Cytex.
02:42.11
Allen
ah And there were workstations there and that it did kind of pre-press work, but the rest of the work was done the old fashioned way. So the the, the division looked really cool because of course there’d be these big flat files and big light tables and craftspeople’s hunched over the light tables hand, you know, hand correcting things and stuff.
02:56.17
Jon
Right.
03:01.44
Allen
So, ah It was at the beginning of a profound change, much of which I didn’t have anything directly to do, but it was a sort of happy witness to a lot of it.
03:10.72
Jon
Right. But that, that hand craftness at natural geographic still happens today. Right.
03:19.68
Allen
Yes, it does. and It’s just the, uh, the tools have changed.
03:23.37
Jon
Yeah.
03:23.46
Allen
ah to me, it’s a a remarkable thing that actually, if and unless you knew about the timing of this huge transition from analog to digital, you, you wouldn’t really be able to tell from the from the maps themselves.
03:37.69
Jon
Right, right.
03:38.08
Allen
And so, uh, yeah, but the, uh, of course the productivity of the group and increased enormously with these new tools. Following, of course, a quite steep and very long learning curve, but but yeah it’s the the map division changed as the world changed.
03:49.49
Jon
Right. Yeah.
03:54.85
Jon
Right. And then you moved over to Esri to work on on maps and story maps.
04:00.39
Allen
Yeah, so i had, in my position as the chief cartographer, I was the person to kind of be the liaison between National Geographic and ESRI as we were trying to to bring the two organizations closer.
04:14.21
Allen
um And also in my latter days, I’d done some experimenting with what we call GeoStories, which would turned out to be a kind of progenitor of story maps we did at Esri. So combining two brand assets of the society, beautiful images, beautiful maps on the web to tell stories, especially things like travel travel logs, walking tours, et cetera.
04:35.66
Allen
And we were pretty proud of it, but it was not a time when the society was very receptive to these sorts of ideas. Maybe we were a little ahead of time or something.
04:46.22
Allen
So I realized i could probably do better at at Esri, where I had more kind of natural kindred spirits.
04:53.58
Jon
Right. and Right. So now we have this new book, Telling Stories with Maps. um I guess I’ll just ask like the question I kind of ask to all authors, which is, you know why did you write it and who is it for? And what do you hope readers can can learn from it or do with it?
05:11.94
Allen
Right. Well, um another confession, which is that that um i yeah i I had not given any thought to writing a book, but an acquisitions editor at Esri Press sent me a note out of the blue saying, we’re thinking about doing a book on telling stories with maps.
05:29.60
Allen
And I immediately jumped, ah instantly jumped at the chance and thought, this this is great. It’s an opportunity I never thought I would have to tell at least part of our broad audience um what the ah value and importance and fun really of ah ah map-based storytelling was all about. And obviously take advantage of my decades of experience at NatGeo and Esri.
05:54.27
Allen
turned into very early on was conceived as a kind of combination of sort of memoir type thing using my career as a sort of metaphor for the changes that the world has gone through and cartography and and data visualization have gone through.
06:09.71
Jon
e And and the it’s interesting because the book is sort of rooted in store it in Esri’s story maps, but it it goes pretty far beyond that. So how did you sort of think about how do I balance you know the tool versus the concept?
06:27.61
Allen
Yeah, yeah. um It was an ongoing process. um I can’t say that it was all that all that difficult. It just kind of felt natural to me. I felt from the start that we didn’t want this to be a yeah ah you know, a technical manual or step-by-step instructions, although the last chapter goes into that to some extent, ah but that I wanted to focus not solely, but maybe even primarily on storytelling rather than touting ArcGIS story maps, which I do love to tout because we think I think it’s the best solution for map-based storytelling on the web.
06:46.31
Jon
Yeah.
07:05.75
Jon
Mm-hmm. So, okay. So tell me a little bit about your approach or concept or philosophy when it comes to storytelling. Like the first chapter of the book really goes into sort of like the sort of traditional definition of what story is. But I wrestle with this a lot because people will like make a graph of a line, you know, make a line chart and they’ll oh, I’m telling this story. And it’s like, yeah, your line’s going up. I don’t know if that’s a story. So can you talk a little bit about how you
07:38.32
Jon
think about storytelling and data and obviously within within the mapping world.
07:44.28
Allen
Yeah, sure. um i yeah i actually have a pretty liberal definition of story what a story is, because we want to serve a lot of people with with who who might come to this with with different goals and objectives.
07:53.07
Jon
Yeah.
08:00.20
Allen
um So I don’t mind calling a you know a beautiful map with some accompanying text and a picture or two a story, even if it doesn’t have the the classic plot elements of, us say, a novel-type narrative.
08:14.67
Allen
That said, ah we we think a lot about the beginning, middle, and end of our stories. So starting with a bang, coming up with evocative titles and beautiful images that draw people into a story.
08:27.50
Allen
Then the main part of the story, mixing maps and multimedia. I’d love to talk a little bit about map choreography. And then having a conclusion that’s all about taking action of some sort, even if it’s just reading more or clicking a donate button or you name it. we want to We want the story itself to inspire people to do something and to to take action.
08:52.50
Allen
um Another thing about storytelling is been it’s it’s quite ah it’s a buzzword these days, and there are lots of books about storytelling, so I didn’t do a lot of dwelling on it.
08:57.84
Jon
Yeah.
09:02.44
Allen
ah It was more more the value of maps in enriching and adding context to stories. That makes sense.
09:10.11
Jon
and And how do you, so story maps is sort of like the digital interactive, ah platform where you can scroll or like you said, you can click a button, you can do a thing.
09:22.69
Jon
But you, you, like you said, you started your career at National Geographic where, you know, was for a long time, just the printed magazine. So how do you think about storytelling and like a static page or today it would be like an infographic or a single dashboard?
09:39.71
Allen
Right. Yes. i Storytelling in that static analog realm was, in a lot of ways, a lot more challenging.
09:47.03
Jon
Yeah.
09:47.20
Allen
ah You had, of course, the luxury of a big sheet, especially for the supplement maps and atlases that we worked on. So you could put a lot of information into a single map. But the narrative element of a single printed map is a sort of subtle interplay between ah is sort of between these different types of information.
10:06.94
Allen
So you want to build a kind of subtle visual hierarchy into a map. So the biggest cities obviously have the largest, the largest labels um and different types of features are depicted in in different colors, things like that.
10:12.20
Jon
and
10:23.08
Allen
And of course, we did combine maps with text in static forms, especially on what we call the art side of a supplement. So one side might be a big map. The other side would be a series of maps with accompanying texts and visuals, which more closely resembles what story maps have become.
10:40.79
Jon
And do you, in in especially in that format, do you expect people to read the spread in a linear way? Or do you sort of say, well, we can kind of direct people’s attention using highlights or color or you know or big words or whatever it is, but do you expect people to sort of work their way through it in a linear way? Or are you just sort of Hope that you can direct them in the direct in in the way that you want them to go through it.
11:10.70
Allen
in In the analog realm, yes, we we you know with with we can only do so much to steer people into a particular sequence. So it’s ah it’s a much more subtle thing.
11:19.42
Jon
Yeah.
11:21.42
Allen
In the digital realm, of course, you know we’ve given up, for the most part, the large formats. ah for much smaller screens and a lot much less detail, but we have the huge advantage of time so we can unfold a narrative as viewers scroll and interact.
11:38.34
Allen
And so that’s, yeah, that that opens up all sorts of worlds of storytelling potential.
11:45.34
Jon
And in the digital world, I’m curious about vertical versus horizontal. um It seems like it’s a more natural motion for us to swipe, to scroll horizontally, but then to swipe, I’m sorry, to scroll vertically, but to swipe horizontally.
12:02.15
Jon
And do you, or does story maps, I mean, I’m not, I’m not super familiar with, with making story maps. I’ll put it that way. But like, how do you think about the two directions and like when they should be paired together or when they should not or, you know, the the it’s just two kind of very different motions that people are familiar with.
12:19.93
Allen
Yeah, and I think most of us have been kind of trained by myriad websites to that the scroll is the main things.
12:29.32
Jon
Yeah.
12:30.48
Allen
You know, a cover is is like at the top of a stack of items that you scroll through vertically. um Horizontally, i think, is a less natural ah action, ah but a swipe feature is obviously kind of horizontally driven.
12:42.04
Jon
Yeah.
12:47.00
Allen
um StoryMaps also has a kind of sister um product or feature ah that is that is slide driven, that is specifically intended for for making presentations. So that’s called briefing.
13:03.81
Allen
But I find it to be less less immersive, less involving, maybe because it reminds me of the you know of ah ah many boring presentations we’ve all had to sit through.
13:17.96
Jon
Yeah, for sure.
13:18.08
Allen
But also the the scroll allows you to kind of seamlessly move um among elements in a way that just doesn’t quite, for some reasons I can’t fully define, ah doesn’t quite work as well, I think.
13:18.76
Jon
yeah
13:31.52
Jon
Yeah, in the horizontal in the horizontal way.
13:32.98
Allen
Right.
13:33.72
Jon
Yeah, yeah.
13:33.75
Allen
Right.
13:34.73
Jon
No, I think that’s right. I think it’s just interesting how we have sort of become accustomed to one direction over another. and And now when I find something, especially in the rare piece where it combines a vertical and a horizontal, it’s so, yeah, astounding.
13:48.12
Allen
Right. Yeah. ah A little disconcerting or?
13:54.17
Jon
Yeah, or surprising, yeah.
13:54.20
Allen
Right.
13:56.67
Jon
or surprising And so if it’s done well, surprising in a good way, where it feels like, okay, this makes sense. I’m going horizontally.
14:05.58
Allen
right
14:05.96
Jon
um It’s going through a story and it’s going to branch off into, you know, here’s this, you know, this, we want to add, you know, more detail about this one city. So we’re going to go horizontally and now we’re going turn back to, you know, the zoom out and bring you to another city.
14:19.18
Allen
yeah
14:20.61
Jon
And so when done well, it’s good.
14:21.20
Allen
Yeah. And then one of our GIS story maps, so-called immersive capabilities is ah is Slideshow that does that. So that that is an option.
14:31.11
Jon
Yeah.
14:33.42
Allen
ah One thing that the New York Times and some some of the other major journalism organizations have have done that I find really intriguing is scroll driven navigation across a landscape or a piece piece of art.
14:45.44
Allen
So as you scroll, you’re, you’re following a route and that’s something we’re actively experimenting with.
14:49.30
Jon
yeah
14:51.36
Allen
of course, our trick is that we want to create builder experiences that are intuitive and simple and don’t require a special programming. And those you know organizations like the times have specialists who can custom program these, these sorts of features and capabilities.
15:06.85
Jon
Right.
15:09.76
Jon
Right. Yeah. I mean it’s one of the reasons why people are using the Esri products, right? Is because they don’t have that team or those skills or what have you. So they want that piece that they, that, that, that, that feature that they can just build right off the shelf.
15:25.19
Allen
Exactly. Yeah. In the case of story maps, we are in a sentence. Our goal is to democratize multimedia place-based storytelling.
15:35.31
Jon
Hmm. Yeah. So you mentioned this phrase map choreography earlier, and I’m curious how ah about that about that phrase and how you think about it in your work.
15:40.78
Allen
Yeah.
15:45.48
Allen
Yeah. Well, it’s a great way to to really intimately and seamlessly incorporate maps into a narrative. So what we often do is we’ll, on ESRI’s online resource, ArcGIS Online, we’ll create a so-called web map that has multiple layers and we’ll turn those layers off and then we’ll within the story builder, we’ll access that web map and then we can selectively turn those layers back on, ah so that as, and, and do other things.
16:14.86
Allen
So as say a reader scrolls through a story and encounters a map, maybe as that person continues to scroll, the map will zoom in to a location and then it might, in the next scrolling action, it might expose a different, uh, thematic layer or something.
16:22.67
Jon
who
16:29.58
Allen
And so, um, so again, it, it, it kind of parses the map into a series of views and experiences that, that just make it, um, a perfectly seamless part of a narrative.
16:43.83
Jon
do you do you worry when building a tool like, like story maps that people who don’t know enough about maps are given this kind of like big power.
16:56.56
Jon
and And I ask because there’s always a sort of undercurrent of, there should be a tool out there that does everything, right? That you can do your statistics, you can do your data visualization, you do great design, and it gives power to every anybody to do anything. And and i I worry about that a little bit because you know I’m not sure I want people who don’t know enough about data to have that much power. Same thing, I don’t know if I want to have people who don’t know anything about color theory or design to be able to just do that.
17:25.27
Jon
do you Do you worry that people that people don’t fully sort of understand the intricacies of of map design.
17:34.51
Allen
um I worry a lot, frankly, a lot less about it now than i used to, oh essentially based on the stories I’m seeing.
17:39.83
Jon
Mm
17:43.16
Jon
hmm.
17:43.15
Allen
Of course, there are some crudely produced stories. There are some color choices that are regrettable. ah But ah but i I actually kind of actively avoided giving people too many choices, thinking we’re going to see some really ugly stories.
17:57.90
Jon
Yeah.
17:58.44
Allen
some really bad maps. And we do now and then, but for the most part, I’ve been incredibly pleasantly surprised by the yeah by the good judgment of our community of storytellers.
18:09.88
Allen
So think I’d rather risk some um embarrassing errors and poor visualizations in favor of giving people maximum choice to do really cool things.
18:22.08
Jon
Yeah. Do you think that is because data has become and data visualization has become such a crucial part of of communicating? Or do you think that’s mostly just because of the decisions that you and your team have made in in producing the tool?
18:40.73
Allen
I’m not sure I know the answer to that question. i think it’s probably ah it’s probably a combination, but certainly people are more, a lot more savvy ah in terms of visualizing data.
18:46.63
Jon
Sure. Mm-hmm.
18:51.63
Allen
not Not everybody by any means, but the kinds of audiences we’re reaching.
18:54.04
Jon
sure
18:56.55
Allen
um And of course, we ah thanks to our sister ah dev team that continues to enhance the product. We’ve added at least simple capabilities for charting, for instance. So we’ve, you know, it kind of inch toward that you can do everything kind of a paradigm, but of course we’ll never, we’ll never claim that or try really to create a truly comprehensive set of tools.
19:21.82
Jon
Right. Is there one big, uh, or not big, but one mistake or one misjudgment, uh, that you see that you wish like all people working with data and maps particularly make that like, this would be like the warning light that you would put out for people.
19:42.84
Allen
Uh, nothing really comes to mind, although, uh, for fun several years ago, I really want to update this. I did a story, a story map called how to make a, I forgot. I think it was how to make an awful story map.
19:55.97
Allen
And so I, I tried to compile within one experience as many poor decisions, like terrible images and maps cluttered with unnecessary information and too much text and that kind of stuff.
20:07.43
Jon
he I gotcha. Yeah. um So i want to turn back to the book specifically. um So I kind of have two, two questions for you. First is on the the construction of the book. The book is lovely to hold. um It’s just laid out beautifully. And I’m curious about the production of it now. So you have this background of National Geographic. So I suspect you did a lot of the layout on your own, but, but what was the production like of actually pull putting it all together?
20:34.66
Allen
um Fortunately, Esri Press gave me quite a bit of freedom. So first first choice was to determine a format. And I’d looked at a bunch of books and liked the liked the size and proportions of the the one that we we ended up with.
20:49.16
Allen
And then I, ah because I do have a design background and do do know some desktop graphics software, i I actually laid out the book as I wrote it because i I just I wanted the visuals to be really married to the text without sending people several pages forward and and back.
21:10.33
Jon
Yeah.
21:10.35
Allen
So I did that and turned, you know essentially turned the book over to Ezra Press and their designer and took my
21:10.50
Jon
Right.
21:17.70
Allen
initial layout and made it much better. So she, yeah, she increased the size of some of the graphics. She refined typography. She added some, a few simple infographics herself.
21:28.30
Allen
So it was, uh, that, that was great because I was by this time I was just too close to it and not really making objective decisions. And her, it was great to bring her sensibility into the process.
21:36.54
Jon
right
21:40.56
Jon
So were you writing directly in and like, and I assume it’s in InDesign. Were you writing directly in InDesign?
21:47.82
Allen
Yeah, I’m not sure it’s a best practice I’d recommend to everybody.
21:51.81
Jon
Yeah. Okay.
21:53.20
Allen
But for the most part, yes, I did. However, at least three of the chapters are based on things I’d written previously, maybe even four or five.
22:01.43
Jon
Okay.
22:02.98
Allen
um So in that case, I’d start with ah with you know an an earlier um blog post or ah you know if if I had a ah Word version of it. And then I would essentially pour it into the layout sequentially as I worked it into the new.
22:20.03
Allen
new format that and of course change the message significantly along the way as well
22:20.18
Jon
Right.
22:24.14
Jon
Yeah. Now I haven’t obviously counted the number of images in here. There’s probably, i don’t know, 300 plus or something like that. I mean, the, the book itself is, uh, let’s see like 210 pages plus, plus the end, the stuff at the end. So it’s like three, 400 images in here. Did you have those in mind when you started writing?
22:47.51
Allen
um To some extent, or to some extent, I was just off opportunistic. So um i you know I realized I had lurking in the depths of my hard drive ah an image of a printed map back from my Nat Geo days that would work nicely. There might have been other examples that I didn’t have direct access to that could have been better.
23:09.63
Allen
Example. So I was yeah a bit of an opportunist, um but otherwise often, you know, I just go in search of things.
23:13.31
Jon
yeah
23:17.68
Allen
Fortunately, and you know, National Geographic to subscribers archives all of its images, all of its issues online. So I could go back to my ancient history period when I was actually involved in the magazine and find some good examples.
23:24.79
Jon
Yeah.
23:30.41
Jon
Yeah. Now, do you have a favorite map either of your own or someone else’s that’s either in the book or just like your, just your favorite map data driven map, I should say.
23:41.81
Allen
I, of course, i’m I’m a bird watcher. It’s like asking me for my favorite bird. I love them all. i mean, they’re just so they’re just so cool and wonderful. One that i I’ve come back to many, many times in story map form is, well, a series actually of stories done by a small nonprofit called the Amazon Conservation Team.
24:03.76
Allen
And they’ve got a very talented fellow there who’s a beautiful storyteller that has created really, really gorgeous stories combining as you know, the best of them do combining maps and images and text and in a really effective and immersive way.
24:21.46
Jon
Yeah.
24:21.57
Allen
And also, of course, describing topics that matter. i I have a passion through that love of birds for conservation. And so I have my favorites tend to come from that realm. And there are lots of beautiful ones created by ah Nature Conservancy and World Wildlife Fund and many others.
24:42.14
Jon
yeah so ah So last thing for you before we before we finish up. So the book, I think, does a really nice job of sort of taking people through the kind of arc or the process of building a a story map. I mean, ah I’ll say a story map, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be an Esri product. It can just be ah a story around maps.
25:05.19
Jon
Is there like one crucial recommendation you would give to folks who are trying to communicate their data through maps that they should keep in the back of their mind as they’re working?
25:18.57
Allen
Uh, there’s, I, I’m not sure I can conjure up one example, but, uh, but, uh, one of the things I, I try to, to teach people or to, to, to remind them of is that is the maps are, can be beautiful.
25:35.35
Allen
They’re very dense with information. They tend to be kind of dispassionate. And so most people aren’t moved to tears over maps, unless maybe it’s a really bad map.
25:39.58
Jon
Mm-hmm.
25:44.52
Allen
But that, uh, that, that maps in combination of with multimedia, especially beautiful photos and videos tickle both sides of your brain, that the sort of emotional and visceral and analytic and the, and the more, I’m sorry, emotional and visceral and the more kind of rational analytic side and that getting that balance, right.
26:06.81
Allen
Can, can really make a story sing in lots of ways.
26:09.72
Jon
Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s great. Um, Alan, where can folks, so they can obviously get the book anywhere i found out on the Esri site. Actually, I saw it in the Esri magazine. That’s where, that’s where I found it first.
26:23.55
Jon
Um, so they can find it anywhere, but where can they find you and your team to either get more help with maps or to get started with story maps?
26:31.92
Allen
ah You can find us just via the esri.com website. um And in in in terms of finding the book, you can find that almost anywhere. it Just search on telling stories with maps book.
26:44.49
Allen
ah don’t Don’t search storytelling with maps. It’s telling stories with maps.
26:48.49
Jon
Yeah. yeah
26:49.21
Allen
But you’ll find it on on Amazon and Barnes & Noble, et cetera.
26:53.53
Jon
Terrific. um Terrific. Well, Alan, thanks so much for coming on the show. Thanks so much for writing the book. um I really enjoyed it. It’s a pleasure to read, pleasure to hold and look at. And um yeah, thanks again for coming on the show.
27:05.04
Allen
Thank you. Enjoyed it. We’ll see you.