In this week’s episode, I interview Natalia Kisileva about her transition from engineering to data visualization and her work in data art and physicalization. We discuss her great Substack newsletter “Flowers and Numbers” and how she shifted her focus to data art, fostering community-building efforts, after the pandemic. Natalia emphasizes making data accessible through tangible experiences and highlights the importance of community, particularly in initiatives like a Telegram group for women learning interactive visualizations. Our conversation explores the relationship between physical and digital data art, and Natalia advocates for creative visualizations to engage audiences emotionally and enhance communication. Learn more about Natalia’s work and how you can bring data art and data physicalization into your own work!
Resources
Check out Natalia’s Flowers and Numbers Substack.
Guest Bio
Natalia Kiseleva is a software engineer and BI analyst from Saint Petersburg, Russia, with over 15 years of experience in process control systems development. She served as Deputy Director for Product Development, working on electrical diagrams, and equipment drawings, and implementing an automated design system. Natalia transitioned to data visualization in 2018, joining the Data Visualization Society and creating educational data viz comics. She specializes in Power BI and Tableau, having taught these tools at the Institute of Business Analytics and developed dashboards for industries like manufacturing and investment. Natalia has taught at top Russian universities, including HSE, SPbSU, and MSU, and has been a mentor in DVS programs several times, created data-art projects, and studied data-art topics. In 2024, she founded the data art community “Flowers and Numbers” and is co-authoring a children’s book on data visualization.
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Transcript
00:04 – 00:08
Welcome back to the PolicyViz Podcast. I’m your host, John Schwabisch.
00:09 – 00:15
On this week’s episode of the show, we talk about data. We talk about art. We talk about data physicalization.
00:16 – 00:22
I am excited to have my guest on this week’s episode of the show, Natalia Kisileva.
00:23 – 00:29
If you are on Substack, you should definitely sign up for her newsletter, Flowers and Numbers, where she talks about all of
00:29 – 00:36
her great amazing work that she’s doing and the community that she’s building around data art and data physicalization.
00:36 – 00:40
And I, if you are unaware, have a keen interest in data physicalization.
00:41 – 00:47
I have been doing a weekly project well, almost weekly project, let’s be honest, almost weekly project at work where I create
00:47 – 00:53
these data physicalizations and people get to input their own data. They get to have some fun.
00:53 – 00:56
They get to learn a little bit more about themselves and their colleagues.
00:56 – 01:03
And so Natalia has been doing this work as well, and I was really curious to talk to her about her journey into this area,
01:03 – 01:12
how she is building this community around data art and data physicalization, and also how she is doing her data art going forward.
01:12 – 01:16
So you’re gonna really enjoy this conversation, I think. I hope.
01:16 – 01:23
I think you’re also gonna learn a little bit more about how we can take our data off screen and do some stuff in the physical
01:23 – 01:31
world so that we can learn more about the world around us, not always just clicking and typing on our computers, but actually building things.
01:32 – 01:33
And it doesn’t have to be difficult.
01:33 – 01:40
It can just be marbles and cups and pencils and markers and glue and scissors.
01:40 – 01:46
So there’s a lot of ways to have fun with data even if it’s on serious topics.
01:46 – 01:51
So I think you’re gonna enjoy this episode, my conversation with Natalia, and here we go.
01:51 – 01:56
Here’s my discussion with Natalia Kisleva on this week’s episode of the PolicyViz Podcast.
02:03 – 02:06
Hi, Natalia. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
02:06 – 02:11
So good to meet you in person. Thank you. Hello. My name is Adriana.
02:12 – 02:20
I I feel like I, I already know you from your from your Substack newsletter because it’s, like, your work is often very kinda personal.
02:20 – 02:23
So I kinda, like, feel like I already kinda know you a little bit.
02:23 – 02:26
So I’m excited to talk about, all the work that you’re doing.
02:27 – 02:33
Maybe we can start, you just sort of introducing yourself and letting people know who you are and the and the work that you’re doing.
02:34 – 02:40
Okay. Let me tell a little about myself. I’m an engineer.
02:40 – 02:52
I was working in automation processing, and, we’re making some big big stuff with, you know, energy, I know, power supply.
02:52 – 02:56
So and, it was, like, for 15 years, I was working with it.
02:56 – 03:03
And then I my car career maybe begin to, I don’t know, rise up.
03:03 – 03:05
And, I begin to work with data.
03:06 – 03:15
I begin to implement some automation inside of com company, you know, reports, data, and statistics, and I begin to work with that visualization.
03:16 – 03:22
And maybe I’ve seen somewhere like beautiful Tableau visualization. I think, like, wow. It’s so nice, maybe.
03:22 – 03:33
And I begin to experimenting, and when I dive deeper, it was such an interesting topic for me. And, I began to teach it.
03:33 – 03:44
I was so hungry for that visualization, books, materials, courses, and everything. And I even pivot my career. I like dropping Jon not drop. Okay.
03:44 – 03:50
I went part time and begin to study more about the 2 visualization.
03:50 – 03:55
And I begin to draw comics about that visualization. Yes.
03:56 – 04:04
Cute characters with funny educational strips, and maybe the time the Data Visualization Society was founded.
04:04 – 04:07
And, it was like a fresh air for me. Like, wow.
04:07 – 04:14
So many people loves data in the charts, and and I wanted to show him my ideas, my characters.
04:14 – 04:18
I wasn’t, like, expert in that visualization at that time.
04:18 – 04:22
I just was a newbie, but really hungry newbie.
04:22 – 04:28
And somehow I became popular with that little characters with cute pictures.
04:29 – 04:34
And then I begin to, create my career around that visualization.
04:35 – 04:39
I find a new part time job with dashboards, with Power BI.
04:39 – 04:49
And for that moment, I already know how to make dashboards in Tableau, but, like, more beautiful dashboards like creative one.
04:49 – 05:04
But in Power BI, I was implemented, you know, the classical dashboards with KPI cards with from general to details, etcetera. And I love it too. And I don’t know.
05:04 – 05:08
So, then I begin to train other peoples, other people.
05:08 – 05:19
Because, in my previous career, I was a trainer too because I have to train people to work with new software, to teach them something, and I love it.
05:19 – 05:23
So I begin to train people to work, with tools.
05:24 – 05:33
And then when I became, when I became, like, better in that visualization myself, I begin to teach, to train them about that visualization, like, in general.
05:33 – 05:34
Right.
05:35 – 05:41
And then some universities called me like, Be our trainer, be our coach and our lecturer.
05:41 – 05:43
And I was like, Oh my god, I’m not so cool,
05:43 – 05:47
but I just have beautiful comics. Only comics,
05:47 – 05:49
not like some PhD.
05:49 – 05:50
Right.
05:50 – 05:57
I didn’t even have some university degree with that visualization, but I love to teach people.
05:57 – 06:02
And the one and the next university called for me, and I love it. Wow.
06:02 – 06:09
And I create interesting materials with some with characters, with comics, and, I love it.
06:09 – 06:20
And I think now my career is all about training something related to data visualization, about workshops, elections, or for companies or for universities.
06:21 – 06:26
But then but then I smashed into data art. And I was like,
06:26 – 06:28
oh my god. So wonderful.
06:29 – 06:33
And I was like, data art. Have you seen this data art? Yeah.
06:33 – 06:42
And, yes, there was a I think it was, 20, 21st year, pan pandemic situation, COVID.
06:42 – 06:50
I was, pregnant with little kid, and I was, like, shut it in the house because it’s impossible to Right.
06:51 – 06:54
To have something, like illness, this type when you’re pregnant.
06:55 – 06:59
And, and I was kind of bored. I already stopped all my jobs.
06:59 – 07:02
I have 3, maybe, that related jobs at that time.
07:03 – 07:06
I was stopped, like, okay, I’ll have a baby, some baby stuff.
07:06 – 07:13
But then I, with the first months of the baby, there are hard times.
07:13 – 07:18
But still, there are many little periods of times when you have nothing to do.
07:18 – 07:23
And I begin to and I begin several blocks about that visualization, like Mhmm.
07:23 – 07:29
Data comics block in Telegram and that the art block into the ground with my friend who love that art too.
07:29 – 07:33
Then it was that a Jon block, and now it’s that a storytelling block.
07:33 – 07:36
I just, I just love blogging, I think.
07:36 – 07:37
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like it. Yeah.
07:37 – 07:47
Yes. Yes. And it was so fun because, you know, Telegram is a platform when where you you could chat there and you could post there, like, I don’t know, like,
07:50 – 07:58
like, one-sided and, two sided. There are different types of visualization, and this is an interesting experience, especially for little bloggers.
07:58 – 08:03
And no and no algorithms will cut your audience from you.
08:03 – 08:08
So it’s more like newsletter than Instagram or Facebook or Twitter.
08:08 – 08:12
So I have a little audience, but it was active.
08:13 – 08:16
And we could chat all together about this interesting topic. Yes.
08:16 – 08:22
Now it’s about maybe 5 1,000 in one block Wow. Half another block to Yeah.
08:22 – 08:28
Yeah. You’ve got a lot you’ve got a lot going on. Yes. I wanted to ask.
08:28 – 08:33
So, so you started as an engineer, and I’m curious.
08:34 – 08:41
Did you and, like, engineering to comics is a pretty big leap. And I’m curious.
08:41 – 08:47
Did you have, design or illustration training at any point?
08:47 – 08:51
Or is this just, like, up until that point, it was just kind of a hobby? Like, you just like to draw.
08:51 – 08:52
You were sort of good at it.
08:52 – 08:56
Like, how did you like, that’s a big gap to
08:56 – 09:07
to space. No. Yes. It’s like a hobby because when I was a kid, I think, wow, illustrations is so cool, But I was a pragmatic kid. Yes. It’s cool, but no money.
09:07 – 09:09
And I need a stable profession in the future.
09:10 – 09:18
So, yeah, they finished a kid art school for kids, like, for middle schoolers for several years.
09:18 – 09:24
Because I was, because my friend gone there, and I was like, oh my god. I’m so lonely without her.
09:25 – 09:35
And, just I I want to yes. I’m a company person. Yeah. Yes. It sounds crazy, but yes.
09:35 – 09:47
And I just like comics as it’s I I know, especially the strip comics, like the short one with little jobs, like, punch, details punch 1, 2, 3. I think it’s cute.
09:47 – 09:57
Right. Right. So, so then you move from so engineering to comics seems like a big leap, but comics to data art seems a little bit more, manageable.
09:58 – 10:07
So one of the things that you talk a lot about in your Substack, Flowers and Art, is, trying to build a community around data art.
10:07 – 10:12
And I’m curious, how do you think about building a community? What does that mean to you?
10:12 – 10:20
What do you sort of what are your, like, biggest dreams and goals for a data art community?
10:21 – 10:33
Mhmm. You know, it was a winter, and, I’ve got the idea to create something about data art because I wanted to chat with someone about data art.
10:33 – 10:41
I was kinda lonely inside and all my friends was like, oh my god, she’s talking about data art. I have to run away quickly. Yes.
10:41 – 10:49
And, you know, in my countries, there are several, data art enthusiasts like me. And I, noctom, and hello.
10:49 – 10:55
Do you want to have a little, chat with me, like, video stream about data art?
10:55 – 11:04
We just talk about it together, show each other beautiful projects, and then post it on YouTube. That’s all. Mhmm. And it was so cool. I love it so much.
11:04 – 11:10
Then, some people it wasn’t a big broadcast. Maybe 15 or 20 person.
11:11 – 11:14
And me and my colleague was the hosts.
11:14 – 11:25
We just chatted with each other and showed the presentation with Georgia Lopez project, Frederick Frigga Panas. You know them. They they were Jon the podcast. Yes.
11:25 – 11:30
And, just discuss the idea of DataArt and how we Jon to create more.
11:31 – 11:41
Then, in the comments of this video and in the chat in this video, there are more person arrived who, in in data art too.
11:41 – 11:48
They even teach someone about data art in my country. I was like, oh my god. Let’s discuss something too.
11:48 – 11:50
And then I begin to grab one person and other.
11:51 – 11:53
It’s about maybe 6 or 7 videos already.
11:54 – 12:10
And, we talked about that art and not just that art in general, but some specific sale, like material that are art or maybe handicraft that are art. Interactive that are art. I don’t remember. Musical one that are in sound. Sounds complicated.
12:11 – 12:18
And yet, generative art and data art, like, is it the same or maybe not? It was really difficult.
12:18 – 12:19
Right.
12:19 – 12:28
Yes. And then I understand there are many people who are into topic, and I read the article about data garden. Data garden.
12:28 – 12:40
The community of women who are teach each other how to create, interactive data visualization, beautiful data arts, with p 5gs.
12:41 – 12:51
Like, it’s like for women to to help, them with programming to upgrade their career, etcetera. And, I was like, oh my. It’s so cool.
12:51 – 12:58
And I just, brought in my Telegram channel, oh, it will be so cool to create something like this, but about data art.
12:58 – 13:01
And I post the link to the group which I created.
13:01 – 13:03
It wasn’t in the middle of night.
13:03 – 13:06
I was like like, okay. Sound. And in the morning,
13:07 – 13:18
there was a group with 40 person, and I didn’t know what to do with them because they gave me, like, okay. Let’s play into data art. Yeah.
13:18 – 13:20
And I was silent for for a week.
13:20 – 13:29
But then I begin to bring him, educational material about data art. Example, some ideas, some, practical tips.
13:30 – 13:37
And I recommended them to create their own data arts. Like, you know, data page.
13:37 – 13:46
I love data page idea when you get some simple data from several people and create 1 a little page for every one of them.
13:46 – 13:50
Like, data pages like Georgia Loop that are pages.
13:50 – 13:54
I think in in that visualization, Sofia, we know him. We love him.
13:54 – 13:59
And, you know, is there a person’s really decent from that art?
13:59 – 14:08
Because I grab him from the illustrator’s chats. Yeah. It was like data, data visualization. But it was so interesting.
14:08 – 14:16
They are, they were good at drawing, at illustrating, and they create really beautiful badges like with bags, with flowers.
14:17 – 14:25
So they invent their, creativity ability creative ability in this data idea because the data was really simple.
14:25 – 14:31
They, don’t need to understand it like not complicated table.
14:31 – 14:34
Only Yeah. 4 digits for each person.
14:34 – 14:34
Right.
14:34 – 14:42
Like, there is the list of skills, like your data skill from 1 to 3, your art skill, your handicraft skill, and your data this skill.
14:42 – 14:45
Like, we’re not so we relate these 4.
14:45 – 14:52
And so we have several I I could show you. We have video as well. I showed video part. Could you see it?
14:52 – 14:57
Is there several different designers create their design designs for their data pages?
14:57 – 14:59
And then there’s more people, more designs.
14:59 – 15:02
And still, we have, like, our logo.
15:02 – 15:10
Right. Right. Yeah. It’s interesting to hear you talk about data art because I think oftentimes when I think about it or when
15:10 – 15:15
I see it, it often it often feels very tangible to me. Right?
15:15 – 15:24
It’s I mean, you’re wearing the bracelet of the, of the bead bracelet you did on on climate stripes, right, like, you know, data sculpture.
15:25 – 15:33
And so but the way that you’re you’re talking about is is really interesting because it’s a little bit of physical art, but
15:33 – 15:37
it’s also a lot of digital art, a lot of coding.
15:38 – 15:43
And so so I was gonna ask about how you think about physical data art when you’re trying to build a sort of international
15:43 – 15:48
community because I can’t, like, hold the stickers or the bracelet that you have right now.
15:48 – 15:52
But if you were to build something online, like, obviously, I can toy around with that.
15:52 – 15:56
So I I guess I’m curious about how you think about sort of this
15:56 – 15:57
I don’t
15:57 – 16:04
know. I guess the the sort of interaction between the tangible in the real world versus the digital that’s kind of online.
16:04 – 16:09
Oh my god. I forgot to mention one thing. Oh. Why yes.
16:09 – 16:15
Why I begin to, begin to begin with video stream story about that art.
16:15 – 16:20
Because I begin to collect all, worldwide that art project.
16:21 – 16:28
Oh, I just begin to because I have a Telegram channel about data arts, and I have collected, the these projects there for years.
16:28 – 16:38
And then I, put them into the notion, add some text, classifications, and begin to study it like, okay.
16:38 – 16:41
I feel they’re only interactive data arts. Okay.
16:41 – 16:47
I feel that the arts are created in Tableau or maybe made by hand or maybe handicrafted.
16:47 – 16:57
And because there are so many different, types of data art, it’s really it’s easy to begin creating that art with your pencil,
16:57 – 17:00
with your, I don’t know, some handicraft skills.
17:00 – 17:07
But, of course, the top, I don’t know, maybe the more complicated data art is is about big data, about some interactive elements
17:07 – 17:12
when you could touch something and it will became flowers after you’re Yeah. Under touch it.
17:12 – 17:15
Or maybe, you know, physical cube of kilobenzee.
17:16 – 17:29
It’s just something already so difficult, so interesting, like a 1,000,000 dots. So, is it like the hi. Some it’s really something, complicating. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
17:29 – 17:35
I think the track is really variety from simple one to difficult one, and it’s okay. We have many types.
17:37 – 17:45
Yeah. It’s just it is it is just a interesting it’s an interest it’s such an interesting field because it branches out into
17:45 – 17:48
so many different ways that we sort of think about and work with data.
17:48 – 17:57
And I and I wanted to ask, now that you sort of have, kind of different ways in which you work and communicate with data,
17:57 – 18:03
you’ve got sort of the dashboarding, Tableau, Power BI world. You’ve got, DataArt. You’ve got the Datacomics.
18:04 – 18:13
When you work with your students or you work with clients or you work with businesses, like, how do you talk to them about
18:14 – 18:18
using 1 or multiple different ways to communicate their data?
18:18 – 18:25
Because I would guess that, you know, most business clients who are gonna come to you are gonna say, hey. We want a Tableau dashboard. Right?
18:25 – 18:32
And but I can imagine you coming back and say, well, we could do this like, I don’t know, mural or badges or practices or,
18:32 – 18:41
yeah, or flowers or, like so so how do you how do you how do you talk to clients or or talk to students about these different ways of of communicating their data?
18:42 – 18:45
Okay. I think there are really different types of audience, of course.
18:45 – 18:50
And, one type of audience understand only simple data visualization charts.
18:51 – 18:53
Even dashboards will be too much for them.
18:53 – 19:00
So maybe I think the data storytelling, like, the simple one with highlighting, with clutter removing is really best fit for
19:00 – 19:04
this type of audience, and I’m trying to speak, with them about it.
19:04 – 19:13
But if I see that audience is already, you know, hungry for something new, I’m already on dashboards. It’s so boring. We have them enough.
19:13 – 19:16
And then I could show them something interesting.
19:17 – 19:27
One big company invited me to, like a guest from the future to tell to tell them about something new about, visualization.
19:27 – 19:29
And then I talking about data art.
19:29 – 19:32
And there was really there are really good feedback.
19:32 – 19:37
They were happy and their eyes were, like, sparkling because I showed so many brilliant examples.
19:38 – 19:41
Of course, the business is really interesting, and what about money?
19:41 – 19:44
How could we make money from data art?
19:44 – 19:44
Yeah.
19:44 – 19:51
It’s hard. But there are many, like, you know, big projects, that are with, big corporate clients.
19:51 – 20:01
And for when, some design company creates something, that artist, design for someone. Okay. We we have these cases.
20:02 – 20:14
And Elsa, second election is near this, was about I was trying to show the idea of data pages for HR people. Mhmm. Like, hey.
20:14 – 20:16
You need to communicate with your people.
20:16 – 20:23
You need to communicate about your company outside. Think about data. How could you make it? Maybe not charts. Maybe not dashboards.
20:23 – 20:31
Maybe something more creative because creative data are the power of data art, not about specific details, not about, oh my
20:31 – 20:36
god, I’ve got the our fact and plan financial. It’s about emotions.
20:36 – 20:42
It’s about touching, about involving people inside, like, to grab their attention.
20:42 – 20:50
And now in modern life, when everyone in their mobile is like, okay, sorry, bye bye charts. Thank you. And, something beautiful.
20:50 – 20:56
You could show them something that grabs their attention, and then you could show them something useful. Mhmm.
20:56 – 21:00
So I think it’s great part, for this task.
21:00 – 21:06
We couldn’t replace dashboard with data art elements. And I had a Jon. You know?
21:06 – 21:14
The projects like data cuisine when you create a little chocolate boxes with data inside Yeah. Or something.
21:14 – 21:19
It couldn’t replace, like, the year report for your boss.
21:20 – 21:20
Right.
21:20 – 21:30
Yeah. I feel it’s really interesting, for some communication events for that evidence for corporate evidence for team building evidence.
21:30 – 21:40
When person would really feel that as person is a part of company, their data is a part of company, and I think it’s really touching. No.
21:40 – 21:47
I was really loyal employer for 15 years, and it was important for me, like, something to be a part of.
21:47 – 21:57
And if that the art was there, I think it will be really great because the boring, some, you know, boring flowers about our
21:57 – 22:02
principles of our company, our guidelines, it’s so boring. No one want to read it.
22:02 – 22:04
Right. So Right.
22:04 – 22:06
Actually, it happens like that.
22:06 – 22:14
Yeah. I mean, it’s a very interesting way to think about how to engage people, especially in person, which we’re sort of now
22:14 – 22:18
getting back to finally after the pandemic. It’s just a really interesting way.
22:19 – 22:28
The the other thing, though, that I wanted to ask you about was along this line is whether you find that people don’t take
22:28 – 22:35
the data art world seriously and whether they sort of, you know, dismiss it as sort of, you know, whatever.
22:35 – 22:42
I mean, I I I interviewed, for the show years ago, I interviewed Edward Tufte, and he sort of shot down data art.
22:42 – 22:46
It’s like I mean, I think he said something like it’s not serious. It’s not good art.
22:46 – 22:51
It’s not good data, which is, like, just not you know, it wasn’t true then, and it’s not true now.
22:51 – 23:03
But I am curious what you how you find people sort of view DataArt as, you know, sort of in that line of, like, is it serious
23:03 – 23:06
data or is it just sort of, like, kitschy fun?
23:08 – 23:11
Well, it’s it’s really a complex question. Yeah. No.
23:11 – 23:16
I think in the modern world, we need to search for new ways to communicate Yeah.
23:16 – 23:20
With data because there are too much data, too many charts.
23:20 – 23:32
It’s just impossible to, if before it was, troubles to work with tables, now it’s troubles to work with charts and with dashboards because there are too many dashboards.
23:32 – 23:35
And I think we need to experiment with data.
23:36 – 23:42
We need to find and always seek for new ways with data, especially in education.
23:42 – 23:53
I know you’ve tried this wonderful method when you show your students something like turn off faces, and it’s a part of data art, it’s data pages inside.
23:54 – 23:57
And how they use it, they understand it.
23:57 – 24:04
It’s something simple, something maybe closer with material that the art was primitive one Jon one part.
24:05 – 24:05
Yeah, yeah.
24:05 – 24:12
But on the other hand, it’s something maybe that helps people to feel the beautiful and creative part when, you know, the
24:12 – 24:17
data people, they they see it all day on their chairs.
24:17 – 24:21
They watch the tables, boring tables all day.
24:21 – 24:26
Of course, there are many, like, wow, I love data. I’ll sit here till night. But Yeah.
24:26 – 24:29
Most people are so tired of it. Yes. It’s good job. Yes.
24:29 – 24:32
I have nice wage, but I’m boring with it.
24:32 – 24:37
I want a little creative something something creative element in this job.
24:37 – 24:44
And, you know, when you, in your Tableau dashboard, could create at home something beautiful using your skills, your working
24:44 – 24:52
skills, I think it’s like a great, I don’t know, something nice for the soul, for Yeah.
24:52 – 24:55
The life, some light in the life. Yeah.
24:55 – 24:57
Maybe that’s why that people love comics.
24:57 – 25:04
It’s the same way because something fun, something bright, something little cute person. Oh my god. It’s like me.
25:04 – 25:15
Some personalization because especially because now that visualization like more cooperative, work. Yeah. Standardization everywhere.
25:16 – 25:16
Yeah. We
25:16 – 25:17
need to push their
25:18 – 25:21
Yeah. I think that’s right. I think it is about fresh air.
25:21 – 25:30
I think it also, in a lot of ways, sort of like you know, most of us when we were kids, like, you know, we cut construction
25:30 – 25:36
paper and we glued stuff together and we taped stuff together and we drew with colored pencils and crayons and markers.
25:36 – 25:47
And so it kind of brings you back a little bit to that, almost that childlike wonderment and now layering then this sort of
25:47 – 25:55
adult perspective on art or on on data, which is which is kind of an interesting way to think about our day to day jobs.
25:55 – 26:00
Like you said, getting off the computer for a little bit is is, you know, maybe not the worst thing in the world.
26:01 – 26:01
Yep.
26:02 – 26:11
So, okay. So, you’ve got, you’ve got the Telegram. You’ve got your Substack. You’ve got a LinkedIn.
26:11 – 26:13
You’ve got all the socials, of course.
26:13 – 26:16
What else are you working on these days?
26:17 – 26:20
I’m working on several data art projects.
26:20 – 26:23
There’s a material one about my travels.
26:23 – 26:25
You maybe could see that’s the little rings.
26:26 – 26:34
Rings with beads is so problematic, but it’s already maybe 2 years, like, I’m creating it because I wanted to it was on the
26:34 – 26:36
on the paper on the first iteration.
26:36 – 26:44
I was like, it looks plain, but it looks like something that took that I could, bring in material world. And Mhmm.
26:45 – 26:48
I find where I could, three d printing it.
26:48 – 26:53
And then there are many bits from this story. Yeah. Yeah. Why not?
26:53 – 26:58
And and I begin to work with little elements, like, it’s for several months already.
26:59 – 27:02
I wanted to finish it before the snow.
27:02 – 27:04
Okay. But now I’m not so sure.
27:04 – 27:09
Because I wanted to photo it, you know, near the sea, like beautiful sounds sparkling.
27:09 – 27:10
Right.
27:10 – 27:12
This this summer Well, you’ll just have
27:12 – 27:19
to you’ll just have to find a good snow bank, a snow, you know, like a field of white powder. Yeah. It’ll be it’ll be good. Yeah. Yeah.
27:19 – 27:26
Is it see. So I love that our projects, and, I’m trying to create one once in a while.
27:26 – 27:31
I’m experimenting with different type of techniques, material one, digital one, interactive, static.
27:31 – 27:35
I even draw, like, you know, data rabbits data rabbits.
27:35 – 27:39
It was it’s it was my experiment. Okay. Yeah. Yes.
27:39 – 27:40
And also, I’m collecting data about, like, mothers and
27:40 – 27:41
data
27:41 – 27:45
the mother. And we discuss with my friends that, sometimes in several
27:51 – 27:56
in several countries, mothers don’t, got the respect of society.
27:57 – 28:04
Sometimes there was, like, people chewing on them like, oh my god, your kids are so you know? And Yeah.
28:04 – 28:06
Oh, yeah. I know. Yeah. Yeah. I know.
28:06 – 28:15
Planes, but, you know, for women in 1st year, 1st 3 years, just like, oh my god. I need to survive. I need to help me. What do you want from me?
28:15 – 28:20
It’s like, it’s really hard and many have problems with their health.
28:20 – 28:23
You know, they have cuts, magicians, operation.
28:23 – 28:30
And I won’t talk, and it the project of my friends was about, like, medals for months.
28:30 – 28:35
Like, medals for operation, medals for 1st, medals for 2nd, kids for 3rd.
28:35 – 28:40
And I was I was thinking like, oh my god. Great idea. And I begin to pull sorry.
28:41 – 28:47
And I begin to collect data from all my Telegram channels, like, please share this poll.
28:47 – 28:57
And, women begin to write about themselves as there is poll about different type of problems women had after giving a birth. Mhmm.
28:57 – 29:01
And, I have a nice, good data set for now.
29:01 – 29:04
Many lives there as their texts and their data.
29:04 – 29:12
And I want to create something, some of the art projects on it about not like some sad story, like, oh my god, it’s so bad.
29:12 – 29:16
But more like, we’re brave, we’re strong, and Yeah.
29:16 – 29:19
Take it, and we have many medals for this for that.
29:20 – 29:27
I want this, to I don’t know, to motivate those moms who are who don’t have power, who are so helpless at this period of life.
29:27 – 29:32
And I think this one this project will be next for now after I finish this
29:32 – 29:33
one. But I have
29:33 – 29:37
many projects in parallel and it’s impossible to to remember.
29:37 – 29:45
Sounds like you have you you’ve collected, like, you’ve collected data from other people, not just yourself.
29:45 – 29:47
Yes. Yes. I do know.
29:47 – 29:53
I mean, that’s really interesting, right, to because there’s sort of like a lot of your projects seem to be your personal
29:53 – 30:00
experience, your personal data, but this one that you’re starting seems like you’ve collected data from you’ve collected the
30:00 – 30:07
data, which is interesting in its own right, but you’ve collected the data and then how to trans and and translate that into DataArt, which is a Yes. Like
30:07 – 30:17
yeah. It began from, Databages story because, maybe you remember the Kimmy Scott’s projects about, moms, who with there was
30:17 – 30:26
little cute beige from mothers about and they have, little cute round thing with flowers inside and some symbols to encode
30:26 – 30:32
the children’s their personality of the women and the city or maybe the place where it should burn.
30:32 – 30:44
And I have a little community of mothers, and there was like, I’ll train on something like this on this simple idea because I wasn’t that aren’t professional yet. Yes. Yeah.
30:44 – 30:46
And I wanted to experiment with it.
30:46 – 31:01
And there was a 20 or 25 person, and I create a Google form for them and then grab the data and made it even in Figma. I even, don’t make it interactive. I just experiment with it.
31:01 – 31:06
I use part of Kim Discord projects, part of your design because I’m not designer. I’m bad with colors.
31:07 – 31:21
I don’t understand the idea, and I I love the black and white comics because, like, good one with the brush, with the pencil, just something like dirty dirty comics.
31:21 – 31:26
Without beautiful colors because I just don’t don’t know how to make them. Yeah.
31:26 – 31:35
Sometimes I got the ready pellets and use it. And everyone say, wow. You have some beautiful colors here. You’re a designer. No. Yes.
31:35 – 31:41
And, that’s why, and that was my first attempt to create something like that.
31:41 – 31:46
And later, I was like, it’s so much fun. Then was, flowers and numbers community.
31:47 – 31:50
We we created data base to another person.
31:50 – 31:54
It’s we we made this survey too. It’s the same idea.
31:54 – 32:10
Google Form, Google Sheet, and then everyone could check the data and create automatically or maybe with code, with Adobe Illustrator, maybe with with their hands. Everyone create differently. Yeah. Someone just, you know, creating something.
32:10 – 32:12
Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah.
32:12 – 32:17
Still waiting for this. You know? Yeah. 1 one girl just created several, data art dolls. Wow. Yes.
32:18 – 32:18
It’s such a such a wonderful project.
32:18 – 32:21
And the other one from our community creates many that are flowers from paper.
32:21 – 32:27
There were some tragedy several years ago in Russia. Wow. And
32:30 – 32:39
she feel, emotion about it, and she wanted to create something for the for the year data. And, it was something great.
32:39 – 32:42
And I I’m like, this is my community.
32:43 – 32:44
Yeah. Yeah.
32:44 – 32:47
It’s So that is 300 persons there. Wow.
32:47 – 32:51
And, yes, and we have I’m sending them cards for different countries.
32:51 – 32:56
Like, it’s for the Bulgaria, it’s for Serbia, for Yeah.
32:57 – 32:58
That’s great.
32:58 – 33:04
One was for Afghanistan, but we lost it somewhere. I need to resend it. Yeah.
33:04 – 33:15
So it that’s I I I Jon to blab about my community, and that’s why I need flowers and numbers newsletter to tell one about data art and to involve people.
33:15 – 33:17
You ask about how we see the community.
33:17 – 33:18
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
33:18 – 33:27
I see that we could share with each other the ideas of the tar to help each other to finish them. So I don’t know.
33:28 – 33:32
Just to be there for each other.
33:32 – 33:40
Yeah. Well, on that on that note, I wanna finish up. So where can people find you?
33:40 – 33:44
You just mentioned the Substack newsletter, so Flowers and Art. So where else can
33:44 – 33:45
they where else Yes.
33:45 – 33:48
Flowers and Numbers. Yep. So where where else can they connect with you?
33:49 – 33:54
LinkedIn. I have, Kiseleova Natalia, a o I a o l a.
33:54 – 33:57
It’s my Nick, you could Google me with this link. Hope so.
33:58 – 34:00
Yeah. Yeah. And then there’s
34:00 – 34:05
a link for my website, for my projects, most of them are there.
34:05 – 34:11
Okay. Yeah. And I’ll put links in the in the show notes so people could connect with you, but I would, for folks who are listening,
34:11 – 34:19
number one thing I would recommend is is, subscribing to the newsletter because, it’s been it’s it’s great. It’s a lot of fun.
34:19 – 34:22
And, Natalia, thanks so much for coming on the show.
34:22 – 34:25
This was great, and and good luck building that community.
34:25 – 34:29
I’m so glad to chat with someone about DataArt. Yay.
34:30 – 34:33
We need to create more DataArt projects.
34:35 – 34:37
Alright. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Thank you.
34:37 – 34:38
Have a nice data, everyone.
34:41 – 34:45
Thanks for tuning in, everybody. I hope you enjoyed that episode of the show.
34:45 – 34:50
If you will take just one moment of your day to do a couple of things, that would be great.
34:50 – 34:55
A, sign up for Natalia’s Substack newsletter, flowers and numbers.
34:55 – 34:57
I promise you’re going to enjoy it.
34:57 – 35:02
Number 2, sign up for my PolicyViz newsletter also on Substack.
35:02 – 35:06
You can go right there and sign up for both of ours in 2 quick clicks, and you’re all set.
35:06 – 35:14
And number 3, if you can spare a moment to rate or review this show on your favorite podcast provider’s platform, I would appreciate it.
35:14 – 35:24
Always helps me know that this work is worth doing and helps me find other great guests to bring to you on the PolicyViz Biz Podcast.
35:24 – 35:27
So until next time, thanks so much for listening.
35:27 – 35:29
This has been the PolicyViz Podcast.