In this week’s episode, I welcome Jakub Wabiński and Vincent van Altena to the show to talk about their new book, Tactile Mapping. We explore how tactile and multisensory design can make maps—and data—more accessible for people with visual impairments and beyond. Jakub and Vincent share insights into how tactile maps are designed, tested, and used in real-world settings like museums and public spaces. We also discuss user-centered design, the challenges of scaling inclusive practices, and how tactile mapping can help everyone better understand and navigate the world around them.
Resources
Check out Jackub and Vincent’s book Tactile Mapping
Guest Bio
Vincent van Altena is senior researcher at Kadaster (the Dutch National Mapping and Cadastral Agency) and is co-chair of ICA Working Group on Inclusive Cartography. He holds a bachelor’s degree in theology, an MSc in geographical information science, and a PhD in spatial-temporal interpretation of early Christian literature. At Kadaster, Vincent has worked on topographic mapping, automated generalization, and tailored customer solutions. He participated in international projects, including the European Location Framework, and has also chaired Esri’s User Community for Geospatial Authorities Working Group on Map Automation and Generalization. Currently, he leads the Dutch initiative on tactile mapping. Vincent likes cooking (not cleaning), plays piano and synthesizer, and can spend hours reharmonizing music (with different levels of success).
Jakub Wabiński is a researcher and lecturer at the Institute of Geospatial Engineering and Geodesy, Faculty of Civil Engineering and Geodesy, at the Military University of Technology in Warsaw, Poland. He serves as co-chair of the Working Group on Inclusive Cartography, operating under the auspices of the International Cartographic Association. His research and teaching focus on cartography, GIS, and geovisualization. As part of his doctorate, completed in 2023, he investigated tactile map design and the automation of tactile map production. Beyond academia, he is a board game enthusiast and an avid wanderer who enjoys spending time in nature.
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Transcript
00:02.24
Jon
Vincent, Jakob, good to meet you. Thanks for coming on the show.
00:05.90
Vincent van Altena
Yeah, thank you.
00:06.22
Jakub
that Yeah, great meeting you.
00:07.61
Jon
ah This is very ah very exciting. um New book, Tactile Mapping. um Probably not a place that a lot of people in the data-vis field think about a lot, which is like working in the physical tactile world, which is what attracted me to the book.
00:24.88
Jon
um So I’m excited to talk to you about it, the motivation, some of your favorites in it. um But just so we can give folks, give listeners kind of a you know, framework for who they’re listening to today. i thought we’d just start with some basic introductions and then talk about the book. So maybe Vincent, you can talk a little bit about yourself and then Jakob, and then we’ll we dive in.
00:43.36
Vincent van Altena
Yeah, so I’m Vincent van Altena. I’m from the Netherlands and there I work as a senior consultant research at the Dutch Cadastre, so the Dutch National Mapping and Cadastre Agency.
00:58.04
Jakub
So
00:59.74
Vincent van Altena
And my main domain is cartography and topography. And by the way, I’m not a drummer. That’s my son’s kid. So yeah.
01:09.18
Jon
Yeah, we’ve had this long conversation before we recorded about drums because I keep trying to get into my drumming and ah failing miserably.
01:14.66
Vincent van Altena
yes
01:15.54
Jon
But um yeah, so yeah, that’s ah probably just a little insight into everybody’s family life about what we’re doing here. um Okay, Jakob, yeah.
01:28.14
Jakub
Yeah. Hi there. So my name is Jakub Wabiński and I work for the Military University of Technology in Warsaw, Poland. And I am a researcher and lecturer there because it’s really complicated to convert the European position names into American standards.
01:46.74
Jakub
So I just keep it simple. Researcher and lecturer.
01:51.14
Jon
Gotcha. Are you trained? Are you both trained as cartographers?
01:56.72
Vincent van Altena
oh
01:57.82
Jakub
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my training was in geodesy and cartography. So it was more about serving, also hydrography.
02:01.61
Jon
Okay.
02:06.04
Jakub
But then I shifted into cartography later during my PhD.
02:10.37
Jon
Okay. Okay. And Vincent, you’re trained as cartographer too.
02:11.94
Vincent van Altena
yeah Well, actually, I started as a theologian, so I did my bachelor’s.
02:16.86
Jon
Oh,
02:17.26
Vincent van Altena
Yeah. So if if we need some help from above, you can ask me. and what And then I did my master’s in geo-information science. And then I finally did my PhD in combining theology and geo-information science.
02:32.27
Vincent van Altena
But that’s something for another podcast, maybe.
02:32.46
Jon
Wow. Yeah, that’s that’s ah that’s another that’s another podcast, maybe a different maybe a totally different show.
02:34.89
Vincent van Altena
Yeah.
02:37.68
Jon
that um Yeah.
02:38.23
Vincent van Altena
Okay.
02:39.06
Jon
um Okay, great. so um So with that as background, can you talk about you know how did this book come together? What was the motivation? And then also, ah because it’s a volume, how did you identify contributors and and manage all the different pieces?
02:56.35
Vincent van Altena
Yeah, well, I think I’m the one to blame who who initiated the stuff. So um for me though for me, the whole story started in 2017. So that that’s when I got introduced to tactile maps.
03:12.62
Vincent van Altena
um Well, that actually um yeah evolved into ah a Dutch national mapping project. and And working on the projects, we also came to know, for instance, Jakub from Poland and some other researchers.
03:30.31
Vincent van Altena
And for me, I finally thought, well, actually, when I first got to know about tactile maps, I thought, well, this is quite new. And then I discovered there has been research for for for decades, I would say.
03:39.76
Jakub
you
03:43.05
Jon
name
03:46.98
Vincent van Altena
And then I thought, well, how how can it be that is this is not knowledge which is available to everyone. And that’s what we’re thinking. Well, of course, we have our technical mapping project where we yeah ah catch fish and produce cook the fish for for people.
04:04.95
Jon
Yeah.
04:04.88
Vincent van Altena
um But why not teach people how to fish? And that’s that’s how I got thinking and thought, well, we should predict create a popular book um which yeah interviews introduces people into into the world of of tactile mapping.
04:22.19
Jon
the
04:22.04
Vincent van Altena
and And I asked Jacob if he was willing to join me. um And we both started chasing contributors.
04:31.55
Jakub
you
04:32.54
Vincent van Altena
ah So we we we discussed, well, what kind of contribution contributors do we want? um because we we had ah three types of contributions in mind so expert chapters uh projects and personal stories from people who are fish visually impaired themselves um and yeah well that’s that’s how the ball got rolling now
04:47.47
Jon
right
04:55.07
Jon
Right.
04:56.08
Jakub
Yeah, and at the time, I didn’t know what I’m applying for, given the the deadlines that Vincent imposed.
05:02.66
Jon
Yeah.
05:02.76
Jakub
But yeah, but we made it. and ah and
05:04.48
Jon
Yeah.
05:04.43
Vincent van Altena
yeah
05:05.20
Jakub
And as I said, it’s a collaboration of over 30 people in the book.
05:05.40
Jon
Everybody’s like… Yeah.
05:10.67
Jon
Yeah.
05:11.74
Jakub
um So as Vincent said, chasing those people to keep even tighter deadlines that we gave them seemed impossible.
05:18.96
Jon
Yeah.
05:20.35
Vincent van Altena
yeah
05:20.87
Jon
yeah yeah
05:23.00
Jakub
But yeah, there we are.
05:24.59
Jon
and Did you, as you started formulating your list of contributors, did you set about with, did you set about trying to set a sort of specific balance of, as you mentioned, practitioners versus researchers?
05:33.81
Jakub
Absolutely.
05:40.10
Jon
I mean, the stories we can sort of put aside for a second, but like, did you have an idea of the balance between the sort of two different groups? Yeah.
05:49.33
Vincent van Altena
Yeah, well well, what we wanted to do, we even wanted to include more user stories and also more projects.
05:59.99
Jon
he
06:00.54
Vincent van Altena
But yeah, we also found out given my crazy deadlines, and and that it was also very hard to to find contributors who were able also to and to tell to to deliver something. And and sometimes it it was also, ah especially for the the personal stories, you’re asking also quite quite something from from from someone.
06:24.36
Jon
Right.
06:24.32
Vincent van Altena
It’s, yeah, give insight into into someone’s personal worlds.
06:27.71
Jakub
Thank
06:28.44
Vincent van Altena
and And that’s also, not everyone is willing to do this, of course. So that’s also something, yeah, yeah.
06:32.70
Jon
Right.
06:33.84
Vincent van Altena
yeah
06:34.59
Jon
Yeah, just, was going to say, just so people sort of know, most of the chapters, if if I think maybe all the chapters, start with um kind of a personal story of someone who’s working with a tactile map, maybe has a ah disability or a vision impairment.
06:34.90
Jakub
yeah
06:54.58
Jon
How did you identify? What was that process like? Because I can imagine that being a very different process than saying, hey, professor so-and-so, write a chapter on your research.
07:06.11
Vincent van Altena
Yeah, ah so that that was um ah so both Jacob and I and and also some other people involved in the project. They are involved in doing yeah user research.
07:17.92
Jakub
Thank
07:21.61
Vincent van Altena
um So there we knew some people um who might be willing willing to contribute to to this TAPSIS. So and and we thought, well, OK, maybe these people do have a nice story to tell.
07:35.59
Vincent van Altena
um And and yeah that that’s how everyone got involved. But we also asked from the researchers and professors, please start your chapter also with a personal yeah story, anecdote, telling how you got involved into this world, also to make the story more and more attractive, but also to to yeah show there’s also an intrinsic motivation contribute to.
07:51.11
Jon
Right.
08:03.03
Jon
Mm-hmm.
08:03.46
Vincent van Altena
yeah
08:03.74
Jakub
Yeah, just to make it more engaging. But also on top of that, we really fought and wanted to involve more and more people, not even regardless of the deadlines. ah But then we just thought, OK, we’re only scratching the surface with this book, basically. like There’s lot of topics being covered.
08:21.58
Jakub
but every chapter has this further reading section. So we asked the contributors to just provide further references if somebody wants to dive in into a specific domain of this tactile mapping thing.
08:25.43
Jon
Mm-hmm.
08:35.52
Jon
and here Yeah.
08:35.73
Jakub
And then we thought, okay, like We don’t want to make this book too academic on one hand. So that’s why we thought, OK, let’s put case studies and user stories to it.
08:46.50
Jakub
But also, don’t make it like, I don’t know, 500 pages or something, because that would be just illegible to to immortal beings so yeah outside of academic world.
08:51.23
Jon
Yeah. that
08:58.32
Jakub
So that was the idea behind this whole project.
08:58.83
Jon
Yeah.
09:01.36
Jon
yeah I mean, I think you’ve seen a lot of sort of popular you know, what we might call popular data or math books, the stories are the things that sort of tie them together, right? Like Invisible Women and ah Weapons of Math Destruction, like all those books sort of use the stories to tie into the into the more complicated or complex topics.
09:19.75
Jon
um Okay, so into the book itself, um what struck me, and I think this really… was emphasized for me and in ah chapter five is when we think about visualizing data in the digital world, we think about sort of a pretty finite set of encodings like bars, lines, you circles, something like that.
09:26.98
Jakub
Thank you.
09:32.61
Vincent van Altena
Thank
09:39.71
Jon
But in the tactile tactile world, like that sort of explodes into infinity. We sort of use almost anything. And I’m just curious about how you all think about approaching data communication in the tactile world versus the digital world in the sort of different encodings that we have at our disposal.
10:02.30
Jakub
Oh, yeah. Well, I would argue that the set doesn’t really expand. it just It just transforms to a different form.
10:14.61
Jakub
And it in a tactile world,
10:14.67
Vincent van Altena
Oh
10:17.64
Jakub
in a sense that is just for haptic perception. Because obviously, I don’t really like the English word tactile because I think it just refers to to touch more than what we have ah in Polish.
10:27.02
Jon
Yeah.
10:29.16
Jakub
week We have TIF law, and it’s just for any other sense, basically, that is somehow related to people visual impairments. But nevertheless, it’s just when you consider haptic perception, so if we just stick with da with the with this perception using fingertips, basically, then you haven’t you have to have in mind that the the resolution of a fingertip is approximately 10 times worse or lower than this of an eye.
10:58.30
Jon
Mm-hmm.
10:58.44
Jakub
So yeah to in in order to to convey a graph or ah or any other visualization, a map, or whatever, the error has to be 10 times bigger, which is impractical if you want to touch it, or you have to simplify it.
11:13.79
Jakub
and told right and then the symbols have to be big enough and simple enough. um So in reality, you have a limited set of elements that you could build up on to create graphs and stuff like that in data visualization.
11:30.18
Jakub
But if you can consider tactile form, then it’s even more limited.
11:30.48
Jon
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
11:35.76
Jakub
um Also added to that, when you look on ah on at a graph or something like that, you just perceive it all at once and then you can dive into details. But if you’re a person with visual impairment, so you either have this tunnel vision or use your fingertips, so you just read it part by part and then you have to create a mental image of the hole in your brain, which is
11:56.39
Jon
e
12:00.51
Jakub
um really cognitively expensive. I don’t know if it’s a correct term. Sorry, i’m not a native English speaker. Yeah,
12:07.63
Jon
I think that’s right. No, I think the the cognitive load on that is really high.
12:10.58
Jakub
yeah the cognitive load yeah is pretty is pretty high.
12:12.12
Jon
Yeah.
12:13.06
Jakub
so So you have to keep it simple.
12:14.94
Vincent van Altena
you
12:15.62
Jakub
And that’s ah that’s a real challenge, actually, not only in tactile cartography, tactile mapping, but tactile graphics in general. So any other drawing that you convert ah to that form.
12:26.66
Jon
Right.
12:28.14
Jakub
ah Yeah, so you can play with haptic and visual variables because it is worth mentioning that you know many of the people who are considered facility legally blind, they still have residual vision.
12:39.51
Jakub
So it’s not only Braille, it’s sometimes also large print. when you’re talking about annotations, but the same applies to symbols. So you have this haptic form that is extruded and there are some certain feelings, but there are also contrasting colors for anybody else, basically.
12:59.67
Jakub
This is the idea.
12:59.89
Vincent van Altena
Thank you.
13:00.31
Jakub
like god You don’t really want to make an ActonMap that is only valid for for legally blind people, but it’s just valid for everyone else looking at it. So that’s ah that’s the main idea behind it.
13:09.13
Jon
right
13:11.17
Jakub
And that’s really complicated to make a good title map, given all those constraints.
13:16.62
Jon
Right, so so a good tactile map in that sense, you have all these sort of options and like examples in the book are like blocks versus sewing versus braille versus, you know, there’s a ton of options in here that you can that you can sort of play around with and think about.
13:32.42
Jakub
Yes, and to add on that, you already mentioned that it’s not only touch and vision, it’s also audio feedback, vibratory, it’s still haptic, but different types of feedback.
13:38.91
Jon
Yeah.
13:43.72
Jon
Yeah.
13:44.93
Jakub
Multisensory is the word here, is the term here for how you make this kind of stuff.
13:49.20
Vincent van Altena
Thank you.
13:51.21
Jakub
ah this kind of stuff
13:52.84
Jon
Right. And I want to come back to that for, for I have a question for you later on on sort of scaling these projects broader um as we think about like mobile phones and and on the go and that sort of thing. But we’ll we’ll get to that in ah in a second.
14:05.97
Jon
um There’s also an interesting chapter in the book on user-centered design, which… um upon seeing it, I was like, oh, that’s interesting that that’s here.
14:14.26
Jakub
Thank
14:17.49
Jon
But in in reflection, it makes total sense, especially the way you’ve sort of described how you came about sort of putting the book together. And I was wondering if you talked just a little bit about user-centered design and whether it’s any different in the tactile haptic world versus like doing data visualization or data work anywhere else.
14:41.29
Vincent van Altena
Yeah. So so the i was thinking about this question and I thought, well, actually, is this really different than designing for other people?
14:54.37
Jon
right
14:54.62
Vincent van Altena
And of course, you it’s different because you are coping with people who have visual challenges.
15:02.27
Jakub
Thank
15:02.50
Vincent van Altena
and So you you need to to take change it to ah to an other sensory approach. um But doing user research, and that’s also the nice thing of the chapter, is and which is written written by Robert Roth and Murph Kaskin Sedanek.
15:23.06
Vincent van Altena
I have difficulties pronouncing his name. um But but they what what was really, really nice of the chapter is they say and they start with a, yeah, design mantra, and which is nothing about us without us.
15:37.23
Vincent van Altena
So what they say, you need to have the the yeah prospective user involved all the way.
15:37.39
Jon
Mm-hmm.
15:44.88
Vincent van Altena
So not only to have them get them involved at the end, but have them involved at the start and then during several iterations have them evaluate
15:56.70
Jakub
Thank you.
15:57.28
Vincent van Altena
ah do a sort of formative evaluation, not only afterwards, but during the process and also at the start to do a good inventory of their what what they would like to do.
16:10.55
Vincent van Altena
And I think that that’s really nice off of the chapter. and there’s something And there’s something else which is also very nice of of the chapter is that ah Usually ah when and in normal design um or yeah maybe maybe a bit outdated insights in design is it’s focused when you see the the population.
16:36.10
Vincent van Altena
and so As a bell curve, and so for statistics, normally they say, well, let’s go for the middle 80% and let’s exclude ah the 10% on the edges ah because, well, we we we cannot handle everything.
16:45.56
Jon
Yeah.
16:51.63
Jon
Yes.
16:52.27
Vincent van Altena
um the the The chapter by Ralph, yeah, inverses it and says, well, you have to design for the edges. and And when you design for the edges, it will also be suitable for the middle 80%.
17:10.11
Vincent van Altena
And that’s also something which is which is very nice.
17:10.27
Jon
Hmm.
17:12.59
Vincent van Altena
And of course, how does does this translate to user design for for a tactile map?
17:14.52
Jon
Hmm.
17:20.50
Vincent van Altena
Then it’s, well, you start with designing for people who are completely blind.
17:22.04
Jakub
Thank you.
17:26.05
Vincent van Altena
and and then say, okay, but like Jakob already said, and we can we you can also add ah some primary colors for people with residual vision, which helps helphis helps them also to to read the map, which strengthens also the message. and then you can also But then you also have to be aware of people with coefficient impairedness. So that’s also why you cannot use all the colors.
17:55.37
Vincent van Altena
But by doing so, you also help sighted people um to read maps because it makes it easier to perceive the maps and to discuss about the same map in front of you.
18:09.41
Vincent van Altena
when you have colors included and a very simple agent. So so yes yeah that’s that’s something but by inferring the way how you do user ah research.
18:14.78
Jon
right
18:24.86
Vincent van Altena
I think that’s that’s that’s really helpful. no
18:27.98
Jon
Yeah.
18:28.56
Jakub
Yeah, there’s there’s this’ one more thing I wanted to add to what Vincent said.
18:28.82
Jon
Yeah. That is. a Yeah. Yeah. but
18:32.67
Jakub
ah And sorry for stepping in like this. but The one difference is actually when you do user testing, nowadays, it’s quite often online and you’re good to go
18:44.24
Jon
yeah
18:45.62
Jakub
Whereas when you do something tangible, then you have to invite those people to just to just touch it and see it and evaluate it on site, which is a challenge if you consider that you know you you you you need to plan ahead. If you do this ah like evaluation study session, then you have to invite those people to a place they oh, it would be great if they know the place, but it’s easily accessible for people with different types of disabilities.
19:09.01
Jon
Yeah.
19:13.91
Jon
Yeah.
19:14.02
Jakub
i It should be a safe environment.
19:16.56
Vincent van Altena
I see.
19:16.56
Jakub
Obviously, it’s best if it’s paid, but it’s a common thing in users. But the most important thing is that actually you have to meet these people in person, which is not always the case.
19:28.92
Jakub
you know is Sometimes you can just evaluate visualization online.
19:29.56
Jon
Right.
19:34.35
Jon
Yeah.
19:34.47
Jakub
It’s good.
19:35.32
Jon
So, so, so, so, so to that point, we’ve been talking about vision impairments, but you mentioned there’s lots of other forms of, of disability.
19:35.55
Jakub
yeah
19:41.84
Jon
So how does tactile mapping or, or, mean, it doesn’t have to be mapping, as you mentioned earlier, it can be tactile, anything. How does, do you think of it any, or how do you think of it for people who might be you know have you know disabilities where you know they have difficulties moving their arms or they’re in a wheelchair where maybe they can’t stand up at a regular table and a regular height table and and reach it?
20:08.17
Jakub
sorry.
20:08.42
Jon
like How do you how or how do how do you know people in this area work with folks who have other forms of disabilities or other forms of impairments?
20:20.13
Jakub
Oh, yeah, that’s ah that’s a completely another story, basically.
20:25.00
Jon
he yeah.
20:25.16
Jakub
and that’s something you know There are some ideas now that since title maps are basically simplified versions of maps, multi-sensory versions of ah maps, or we can talk about graphics as well, is that they would work for other groups, like elder people, for example, right who they don’t have this ability of spatial perception.
20:48.45
Jakub
Or some argue that they would work nice for children or even you know people from audience spectrum.
20:56.06
Jon
the
20:55.97
Jakub
That’s not yet evaluated. This is actually something that I’m thinking about now. But for example, the wheelchairs, we’re stepping into this universal design domain.
21:05.18
Jon
Yeah.
21:05.64
Jakub
So when you design outdoor tactile maps, for example, you put them on ah on a high level that it can be accessible by children, by people using wheelchairs.
21:17.33
Jakub
the The table the or or or monument that its the map is put on, it has to be slanted so that you can drive underneath with your wheelchair. So all these considerations are important if you want to make you know um a product for everyone.
21:27.80
Jon
hit
21:33.90
Jakub
But obviously, it’s always a trade-off. you know it’s just
21:36.69
Jon
Right.
21:37.19
Jakub
so we but Both me and Vincent and other researchers in this field, that we we we we know this. Anyone actually doing some user testing knows it, that you know you you get different opinions, and they are just counter-opinions in a sense.
21:50.84
Jon
Mm-hmm.
21:55.35
Jon
Mm-hmm.
21:56.08
Jakub
So I had these opinions saying, OK, this yellow is too bright. It kind of distinguishes from the white background. The other one was saying, oh, the this yellow is perfect.
22:03.62
Jon
Yeah,
22:05.87
Jakub
I like I love it so much.
22:07.12
Jon
right.
22:07.13
Jakub
you know so yeah So it’s obviously a trade-off.
22:08.19
Jon
Right.
22:09.81
Jakub
You just have to take And then if we go back into the bell curve, oh, yeah, we get these outliers, these opinions from from from the edges, but you know we have to.
22:21.11
Jakub
I’m somewhere in the middle still like to just try to please everyone, not fully, but yeah you know in a way that is satisfying and legible, whatever we make.
22:23.54
Jon
Yeah.
22:28.31
Jon
Yeah.
22:31.69
Jon
Yeah.
22:32.57
Vincent van Altena
yeah and it’s it’s of course so you try to standardize and uh what we also have been trying to do is is to um help people to standardize them with methods to create a methodical approach and to fill that toolbox with tools um so so they they can start building on common knowledge and avoid a number of pitholes.
22:58.51
Jakub
up
22:59.66
Jon
Yeah.
23:01.96
Vincent van Altena
But there still is a certain, like Jakub said, a trade-off or tailor-made and and yeah that involved ah because you have to fit ah to the specific needs of a specific person.
23:18.99
Jon
yeah
23:19.15
Vincent van Altena
And for for instance, to add add on this, and I won’t go into that rabbit hole, but um for instance, our tactile mapping book is totally unfit for yeah to accommodate ah deaf people.
23:19.30
Jakub
ah but
23:33.23
Vincent van Altena
ah But there are also initiatives to accommodate deaf people, for instance, because you have toponyms in a specific language and yeah communicating about them in sign language can be very difficult.
23:33.84
Jon
Hmm. Hmm.
23:45.93
Vincent van Altena
So people also started to create specific signs for toponyms in the national language. So that’s a totally different subject. But there yeah there are so many ways to be creative and to see how we can open up a world like this to to Yeah, people with a certain challenge.
24:04.39
Vincent van Altena
Yeah.
24:05.00
Jon
Right. um
24:06.25
Jakub
and I think it’s ah it’s a good moment to actually mention the working group, is it? Because yeah.
24:10.76
Vincent van Altena
Of course, yes.
24:10.97
Jon
Yeah. Yeah.
24:11.94
Vincent van Altena
Yeah.
24:12.06
Jakub
ah but Yes, because me and Vincent, we’re co-chairing a working group on inclusive cartography that is part of the International Cartographic Association.
24:12.52
Jon
Yeah.
24:22.46
Jakub
And hopefully, you you will share the link to the website and and ah in the description or something.
24:26.68
Jon
yeah
24:29.48
Jakub
But so the idea is that, OK, we both come from this world of tactile mapping. So it’s one form of inclusive cartography inclusive spatial data, spatial analysis and stuff, all that.
24:44.32
Jakub
But there are different types. of inclusiveness and it’s not only you know physically based so i’m not only talking about uh inclusiveness in terms of um cognition right but also and ah and disabilities but also um racial educational uh national and uh cultural inclusiveness so i just wanted to do it advertise so if any of the listeners is into this field um
24:46.05
Vincent van Altena
Bye.
24:56.64
Jon
Right.
25:07.63
Jon
right
25:13.73
Jakub
and would like to connect with us and share their work and perhaps collaborate to to to to you know to just foster accessibility in spatial knowledge, let’s put it that way, and cartography, then there we are.
25:26.76
Jon
here
25:30.68
Jon
Yeah, but that’s terrific.
25:30.59
Jakub
Please connect with us. And would be great.
25:32.49
Jon
So, yeah. So I’ll definitely put a note in the in the show notes.
25:34.13
Jakub
but Yeah, that’s what that’s why I mentioned is that because Vincent was mentioning these different types of disabilities that kind of
25:35.65
Jon
Yeah.
25:39.09
Jon
Yeah. Yeah.
25:42.29
Jakub
can be paced in the research and and practice.
25:45.86
Jon
For sure.
25:48.30
Jon
Yeah. ah Yes, for sure. I’ll put the note in the in the show notes or the link in the show notes. um this this kind of This part of the conversation has has made me think of a question I probably should have asked towards the beginning, which is where do these sorts of projects, where do you see them implemented or exhibited or shown? I mean, I can think about, for example, like a science museum or a children’s museum to me seems like a pretty obvious place where they would be, you know, installed, but where have you seen these sorts of things, um, presented where people can actually use them?
26:22.67
Vincent van Altena
Yeah, so um I think, like like you mentioned, the the public spaces, so ah train stations or museums, but but but also there is quite some interest from and persons themselves because they want to know if they travel somewhere, well, what will I meet?
26:29.64
Jon
Mm-hmm.
26:33.42
Jon
Mm-hmm.
26:41.28
Jakub
Okay.
26:46.06
Vincent van Altena
In the book, for instance, there’s a very nice story from Parham, Param is a an exp expert he’s very well skilled um and um he likes traveling likes challenges but uh when he had had to had first had to go for a medical examination in another town he went there and because he didn’t know the surroundings well he ended up in a place he didn’t want to be in that’s my spoiler alert
27:13.29
Jon
Yeah.
27:13.52
Vincent van Altena
So I won’t go into the details there, but but
27:17.60
Jakub
so
27:17.73
Vincent van Altena
the the um I think that is it the punchline of the story is you need to know your surroundings. So if you’re traveling somewhere, you need to know how how the yeah how your surroundings look.
27:33.36
Vincent van Altena
And of course, we do have our our cell phones with NetApps. And they are very well suited to bring you from to B, from doorstep to doorstep.
27:45.84
Jon
Yeah.
27:47.37
Vincent van Altena
And if you walk the wrong way, it it will also correct you. But it’s only giving you ah guidance to to get there, but it doesn’t show you where you are or if there is a bookshop just to two houses away from you or well, et cetera, you can fill.
28:09.56
Jon
yeah
28:09.77
Vincent van Altena
And I think that’s also the the why why these maps are also important because they give you an impression of your neighborhood.
28:18.88
Jon
yeah
28:19.34
Vincent van Altena
They can also give you an impression to understand the news better. um For instance, the eight o’clock news and if there are some political tensions or if you are going on a holiday, how’s the layout of the country or well whatever.
28:38.91
Vincent van Altena
and And that’s also where where these maps are very interesting. very suitable. So yeah, it’s public spaces, it’s personal interest, and of course, in the education and domain.
28:49.57
Vincent van Altena
So people need to learn topography in schools.
28:50.05
Jon
yeah
28:50.59
Jakub
Thank you.
28:53.47
Jon
Right.
28:53.38
Vincent van Altena
oh But also lead to learn topography to understand history or but yeah yeah we we can go on and on with maps are everywhere.
29:02.39
Jon
Absolutely. Yeah.
29:04.47
Vincent van Altena
Yeah.
29:04.89
Jon
Yes.
29:05.20
Jakub
yeah And it’s pretty important to to to to mention that da you know the curricula for children with visual impairments, they’re pretty often the same as for the sighted children, whereas there’s no materials like to to convey the information, right?
29:18.27
Jon
Yeah.
29:21.12
Jon
Yeah.
29:22.70
Jakub
You’re learning about, i don’t know, mineral resources that are in your country. Perfect. But there are no maps for those children, right?
29:30.69
Jon
Yeah.
29:31.87
Jakub
So they are obviously somebody can explain it But still, it’s not the same. like um you know An image is worth thousand words and stuff like that.
29:41.23
Jon
Yeah.
29:41.62
Jakub
So it’s even more true for maps, I think.
29:44.33
Jon
Yeah. So, so to that point then how how do you think people can think about scaling this, this kind of work? Um, Not everybody is you know running a science museum or teaching in an elementary school.
29:58.92
Jon
I mean, do these do these sort of tactile maps, do they um do they scale or are they more custom for a specific use case in a specific place?
30:09.05
Jakub
you
30:11.81
Jon
so So really, I guess the question is for people who listen to the show, who tend to be working with data, creating data visualizations on their computer, um and they may want to either expand their,
30:24.65
Jon
their skills, their toolkit, or the people that they work with, how do they think about implementing or scaling this work into their own, this, this approach into their own work?
30:36.63
Vincent van Altena
Well, um it’s not to advocate my own work, but for instance, what we did in in the tactile mapping the ditch that come up in a project, we we created an online repository where people can download the styles.
30:53.48
Jon
Hmm.
30:54.02
Vincent van Altena
And we also created a tutorial online, just a sort one on on one course ah course and to to learn some basic principles to get some hands on experience with ah producing tactile maps.
31:10.90
Vincent van Altena
And it’s just only the the first steps.
31:12.32
Jakub
Thank you.
31:14.43
Vincent van Altena
But Jakob is also working on a project and to make and more material available. So and maybe Jakob can explain a bit a little bit about this.
31:26.21
Jon
Yeah.
31:26.93
Jakub
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So as Vincent said, ah we’re now running a project that is called TREP. So it’s going to be tactile graphics knowledge repository. And one of the parts of the project is to actually launch a platform online website where, you know because as you as he had, like Vincent and his team, they they put all the styles on the website.
31:49.75
Jon
Mm-hmm.
31:49.71
Jakub
But how can a person from the US know about it? right that There is something. you know There’s no need to reinvent the wheel. So the idea is to to create a platform, and there is not such platform yet, where practitioners, researchers, map makers, draft makers, they can put all their knowledge they want to share in one place and just We don’t want to you know um create a place where there will be one one and only guideline on how to make a good map. No, you just there are just different guidelines, best practices, styles, examples, case studies.
32:29.24
Jakub
And you can play around with these and tweak them to your needs, whether it’s a bespoke map for ah for a child next door who wants to have a map of his route to to the school.
32:42.37
Jakub
printed on swell paper or you want to launch a mass production of Tiger Rainbow’s materials for a local science center or you want a highly sophisticated 3D model with audio feedback of the of the of the university campus.
32:51.36
Jon
e
32:59.10
Jakub
right so
32:59.95
Jon
yeah
33:00.05
Jakub
just the the the The knowledge will be there. yeah There will be contacts to people who… That was actually a suggestion form from from one of the one of the people that we asked about this platform when we were trying to think of what we should be should put there. And he said, you know, you you guys should actually put a list of addresses of people who actually make these graphics.
33:22.76
Jakub
you know Because as you said, when there’s someone who’s making a data visualization, they obviously might not have a toilet paper fuser to just make traffic himself or herself or a 3D printer, but they can ask somebody else to actually make it.
33:23.03
Jon
Yeah.
33:31.99
Jon
Right. Yeah. yeah
33:41.68
Jakub
and And it’s also worth mentioning that you know many people with visual impairments themselves, they’re really curious and they actually make their models themselves. So I already met a number of people, which might be surprising to too many of our listeners.
33:59.87
Jakub
They design their own 3D models and they 3D print them with success.
34:03.89
Jon
Right. Yeah.
34:05.11
Jakub
So they just do this parametric modeling, which is crazy. cannot think of it. like
34:10.88
Jon
Yeah.
34:11.01
Jakub
um Obviously, I’m living in a visual world.
34:13.39
Jon
Yeah.
34:13.38
Jakub
So it’s just hard to think of it. And then they operate the three printers. They don’t even have touch screens. they They don’t have audio of feedback. But they’re just pretty simple devices.
34:21.78
Jon
Hmm. Yeah.
34:23.83
Jakub
Obviously, they’re getting burned from time to time when using the 3D printers, but still, they’re successful.
34:26.49
Vincent van Altena
Thank you.
34:30.76
Jakub
And it’s just and it’s just crazy. ah
34:33.56
Jon
Yeah.
34:33.94
Jakub
And we really have to think you know of of all the people with special needs. they they basically their needs are more or less the same in terms of what they want from from from from the modern world.
34:48.39
Jakub
We’re living in the information era and they want to take advantage of it as well.
34:48.88
Jon
Yeah.
34:53.77
Jakub
As Vincent said, so you’re watching news, right? you you You see what is going on. Those people would like to know it as well.
35:00.30
Jon
Yeah. Yeah.
35:00.29
Jakub
So maybe it’s ah it’s not always, it not necessarily always have to be um you know um a physical map or a physical data visualization, but maybe just an alternative text that will explain it better on the website.
35:16.94
Vincent van Altena
Thank
35:17.77
Jakub
Say, OK, so listen, there’s a bar chart showing this and there these data and this is bigger than the other and stuff like that.
35:18.42
Jon
yeah
35:29.55
Jon
Yeah. um Well, to to close us up, I want to come back to the book directly. um Did you have a favorite project or favorite chapter out of this book?
35:41.97
Jon
Not to put ah ah to say that the others weren’t good, but just to say, like was there a project? And it could be yours, but like was there was there one of these that really like struck you? It’s like, oh, that’s that that’s smart. That’s good.
35:56.87
Vincent van Altena
Well, what about of course, I’m now obliged to say that this very the the Polish project was very, very, very special because it’s young.
36:09.66
Vincent van Altena
But, yeah.
36:10.11
Jakub
That wasn’t planned, that wasn’t planned, but thank you.
36:12.14
Jon
ah Right, right, right, right, yeah.
36:13.90
Vincent van Altena
yeah about about But, well, what i I, in terms of the project, what what I really liked was also the project from, and a Ashna, she’s free from Kurdistan.
36:28.21
Jon
Mm-hmm.
36:28.13
Vincent van Altena
And actually, Ashna did her master’s and PhD also in in the realm of tactile mapping.
36:36.21
Jon
Mm-hmm.
36:36.10
Vincent van Altena
And then she returned to Kurdistan and there’s an Institute of the Blind there.
36:40.46
Jakub
Thank
36:41.19
Vincent van Altena
But actually, there is nothing. And then she came back and then she’s she just started working on on the on on that project and just started designing Yeah, tactile maps and just step by step introducing blind students into into the world of geography.
36:54.88
Jon
Yeah. Yeah.
37:03.30
Vincent van Altena
I thought, well, it’s and it’s it’s nothing sophisticated, and but in terms of creativit creativity and in terms of keeping people ah hands and making people more part of society, it’s really sophisticated. And and that’s what that’s what I really liked.
37:22.94
Jon
yeah
37:23.05
Vincent van Altena
And I think besides that, I also really liked the personal stories of the people. And also what i what I really liked from the personal stories is people with visual impairments, they do have a challenge just like you and I.
37:44.72
Vincent van Altena
We also have our challenges, but they are also
37:46.47
Jon
Right.
37:49.91
Vincent van Altena
despite their visual challenge, they are also curious. They want to know, they want to learn, they want to travel, they want to ah spend time with the family. So and that’s the
38:00.44
Jon
Right.
38:04.50
Vincent van Altena
they have visual difficulties. It doesn’t make a difference from you and me.
38:09.50
Jon
Right from the rest of us.
38:09.52
Vincent van Altena
Yeah, and that was, so to say, an eye-opener.
38:10.96
Jon
Yeah.
38:11.60
Jakub
Thank you.
38:13.09
Vincent van Altena
yeah that that was ah yeah so to say a eye eye openener
38:18.32
Jon
e
38:18.79
Vincent van Altena
um for me because ah before this project I wasn’t that involved with people who are blind because yeah luckily many people can see but
38:28.57
Jon
Right.
38:29.35
Vincent van Altena
Yeah, and and I was so surprised and amazed by how creative people can be in in in and what they do and and also in what they want to achieve despite their yeah the challenges.
38:44.75
Vincent van Altena
So that’s i what I like most.
38:45.42
Jon
Right.
38:47.08
Vincent van Altena
So it’s up to you, Jakob.
38:47.72
Jon
Yeah. Yeah.
38:50.27
Jakub
Yeah, well, I fully agree. You know, it’s just, uh, it was also interesting in the very beginning when I first started meeting people, visual impairments, you know, I was like a bit intimidated.
39:01.59
Jakub
How do I approach them? How do it talk to them?
39:03.20
Jon
Yeah.
39:04.37
Jakub
What’s the etiquette?
39:06.01
Jon
Mm-hmm.
39:06.44
Jakub
And, uh, and that The truth is you actually act normal. you know it’s just you you use ah yeah was I was thinking, should I say see you later?
39:17.24
Jakub
and yes, you should say it. It’s just the way it is.
39:19.55
Jon
Yeah.
39:20.44
Jakub
you know They might need some assistance, obviously. um it might require more time to do something. But still, they’re just capable people.
39:31.24
Jakub
um Many of these people, which ah which are you know, bothers me a bit is that they don’t have these opportunities. They’re living in small towns where there’s no um accessible libraries or stuff like this. So we always have to keep in mind that, you know, we’re talking like the people that took part in our studies, even though we try to invite them from all over the country.
39:56.37
Jakub
Many of these, they’re well rehabilitated people ah that are able to read maps because they
40:00.58
Jon
Yeah.
40:03.62
Jakub
the took this formal education and stuff, but there’s lot of other people who are not even aware that these solutions exist. So it’s not only about making good maps, good visualization, but actually letting people know that they are here.
40:12.22
Jon
yeah
40:20.22
Jakub
So we did this project that Vincent mentioned. We we did maps of historic parks and gardens, and these are educational maps, not for orientation. It’s about explain what are the different garden styles and stuff. And staff we and we really forced ah you know the administration administrators of the parks to put the information on their websites.
40:40.57
Jakub
You know, guys, listen, we have these maps.
40:40.87
Jon
Yeah. Yeah.
40:42.91
Jakub
Please come visit us. We’re accessible.
40:44.42
Jon
Yeah.
40:45.96
Jakub
and not all of them complied with it. So that was that’s a bit sad. But other than that, the the story, because he asked about it, the project.
40:53.95
Jon
yeah yeah
40:55.18
Jakub
Well, it’s actually one of the projects, i would say it was described in the personal story by Pet, but I could call it from Czechia, but I can call it a project because he’s a great fan of railway.
41:07.97
Jakub
and he was really interested in how do the railroad system in Europe works. So we he asked his friend to help him ah develop this map. and and and Once ah they they put it together, they printed it and then Pat was so surprised that some of the places, you know like tea there there are in the stories the the ex exact details, but
41:32.82
Jon
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
41:33.34
Jakub
Not until he actually had the map and could see it all together was that we realized that there are some interesting facts about railway network in Europe, especially ah in Slovenia and in Italy, that was the case that he was describing. so As Vincent said, it’s really great to see to see the level of passion that these people have and they just they just want to to live their life, basically.
42:03.81
Vincent van Altena
Thank you.
42:03.99
Jon
Right, right. um Well, it’s great. I really enjoyed the book. I learned a lot. um So just to wrap up, um so you mentioned the working group on tactile cartography.
42:15.85
Jon
ah You mentioned the TGREP project that you’re working on and also this online tutorial that people can use. um And I’ll put links to at least two of those on the on the show notes.
42:26.60
Jon
Is there any way else or how should people reach out to you if they have other questions questions or project ideas, like how should they, how should they get in touch?
42:36.82
Jakub
So it’s just a small correction. It’s inclusive cartography, not tactile cartography.
42:41.83
Jon
Oh, okay.
42:42.25
Jakub
Because want to go broader.
42:42.71
Jon
Yes.
42:43.99
Jakub
So that’s the idea.
42:44.29
Jon
Broader. Yeah. Yeah.
42:45.80
Jakub
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
42:46.42
Jon
Okay.
42:46.91
Jakub
So that’s it.
42:48.46
Jon
Great. um I’ll put those links, but um if they have questions for each of you, I’m sure they can find you on your on your on the department websites and and so on. um Anything else? Any other, um I guess, projects or sites that people are interested in this sort of work should should think about, you know, reaching out to and and connecting with?
43:08.75
Jakub
um I think if people are into spatial data visualization in general, they could take a look at the International Cartographic Association website.
43:19.60
Jakub
There are other commissions, other working groups.
43:20.33
Jon
Yeah.
43:22.94
Jakub
There’s a ah commission on user experience, so they might be interested in that one.
43:23.11
Jon
Great.
43:26.16
Jon
Mm-hmm.
43:27.45
Jakub
Geovisualization,
43:30.80
Vincent van Altena
You’re welcome.
43:30.98
Jakub
ah lots of that I will make the names of, so I’m not trying to to to repeat them.
43:33.37
Vincent van Altena
of
43:35.77
Jon
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, well, great.
43:36.67
Vincent van Altena
be killed
43:37.55
Jon
Well, yeah, well, they can they can start with this working group of inclusive cartography.
43:38.12
Vincent van Altena
yeah
43:42.80
Jon
Sounds like a great start. And then folks can go from there. um Vincent, Jakob, thanks so much for coming on the show. um Really enjoyed the book and really enjoyed the conversation. So thanks for ah thanks for taking the time out of your day to hang out with me.
43:54.62
Vincent van Altena
welcome
43:55.63
Jakub
Thank you Have a good one and enjoy your weekend. right
